Tesla Model Y LR Electricity Costs vs. Gas

[JeffKeryk]

@2strokeNorthstar I just wanted to say my post #37 came out differently than I meant it to be. I learned about money the hard way; you might say I choose to go to the School of Hard Knocks. And I never wanna go back there. So now I would rather do without than to risk being broke again. The solar project was expensive, but is turning out to be a good investment. The ROI, over the next 20 years, will be be good, but the bigger benefit, to me anyways, is ongoing low monthly recurring costs. If I happen to die unexpectedly, my wife has financial security. Because of this, I sleep well.

Good luck in your new home and investing endeavours.

 

[UncleDave]

Is the efficiency the metered amount to charge the car or what the car reports drawn from the battery? If the latter, add ~25% to account for charger and battery charge/discharge efficiency.

Ed

It's more accurate to say there is a range of efficiency.

Charging efficiency depends on the volts / amps and cord length.

Its gets up to around 95% efficient at 240 @ 48 amps.

120V low amp can be worse than 25% loss.

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

@2strokeNorthstar I just wanted to say my post #37 came out differently than I meant it to be. I learned about money the hard way; you might say I choose to go to the School of Hard Knocks. And I never wanna go back there. So now I would rather do without than to risk being broke again. The solar project was expensive, but is turning out to be a good investment. The ROI, over the next 20 years, will be be good, but the bigger benefit, to me anyways, is ongoing low monthly recurring costs. If I happen to die unexpectedly, my wife has financial security. Because of this, I sleep well.

Good luck in your new home and investing endeavours.

I’m not easily offended. I grew up pretty broke too, so I still live like that sort of wether I need to or not. I’m not an early adopter or paying to test anything. You’re right, Not really a good way to make money, as I am finding out slowly.

 

[The_Jeff]

Alabama imposes a $200/year EV fee on license renewal. By my calculations that is the equivalent gasoline tax of 22,000 miles at 30 MPG.

Yeah, it seems like they compared to "average mileage on an average vehicle" 15k at 25 MPG.

I guess to play their game one should get a 3 cyl mitsubishi mirage if you want to be cheap.

They don't consider it unfair (double taxation) to incur that fee on a plug-in hybrid that happens to be running on gasoline.

 

[macarose]

I'm glad to hear other folks are considering an electric vehicle. But some of the assumptions are just plainly out of leftfield.

For starters, you don't need a Level 2 charger if you do a lot of local driving. My family has done quite well with a plain old 110 volt outlet for many years now. Our EV is mainly used for a 12 mile radius of places we go to, and we have taken it on 25 mile trips in the past too. The amount of local activity you have really should be the main determinant of considering an older electric vehicle.

Second, they're not really that expensive if you're willing to buy an unpopular one. I own a dealership so I've had an unusual array over the years. However I was lucky enough to get a Mitsubishi i-MiEV that got a new upgraded battery about six months before I bought it for $3750. It's our third one and it has about an 80 mile range with the way we drive. On an older EV I would only purchase one if the battery had been replaced. The technology back in the early 2010s wasn't so hot.

It cost us 1.5 cents a mile if you strictly look at the fuel side of it. Our utility company charges us $30 a month as a 'maintenance fee' and our regular rate is 7.5 cents per kWh.

It's a great vehicle for local driving, but I am getting increasingly concerned about crash safety. Yesterday we were on our way home and some moron crossed a solid white line while merging into our lane. If I hadn't quickly scooted to the side he/she/it would have easily sideswiped us and maybe worse. On the way to a play today I had another person cross into my lane from another intersection and I had to swerve to get out of the way.

I may sell it for that reason. Just too many idiots out there and this vehicle has flimsy panels. Since we're empty nesters I may opt for a Smart as our next electric vehicle. We'll see.

 

[edhackett]

It's more accurate to say there is a range of efficiency.

Charging efficiency depends on the volts / amps and cord length.

Its gets up to around 95% efficient at 240 @ 48 amps.

120V low amp can be worse than 25% loss.

Yes, you are correct. I wasn't aware the difference could be so great. The efficiency will also vary with ambient temperature and age of the cells.

I get triggered by fanbois and advocacy sites that use the kWh used from the battery and the price of a kWh vs the cost of a kWh when showing what it costs to operate an electric vehicle.

Ed

 

[Cujet]

I get triggered by fanbois and advocacy sites that use the kWh used from the battery and the price of a kWh vs the cost of a kWh when showing what it costs to operate an electric vehicle.

You are not kidding! It's disingenuous, or better yet, an outright lie. 115mpgE is utter nonsense.

Even more telling is that 59%-61% of grid power is used to drive the EV's wheels. Not including regen, of course. We can make all sorts of claims of charge efficiency, battery efficiency, controller efficiency and motor/drivetrain efficiency. But the bottom line is that there is a stack of losses. The energy consumed at the power plant, and the energy output at the wheels are worlds apart. Best case: 26%.

Despite claims that modern gas cars are only 15-20% efficient, that's just not so. Best case: 36%, not including regen on hybrids.

However, the hope is that we can charge with rooftop solar.

Furthermore, cars don't use much energy in the big picture of national energy consumption. We could stop driving cars entirely and national energy use would only decrease by 14%.

 

[alarmguy]

I can understand why the west coast is so solar!

Our "off peak rate" is less than 6 cents a kWh 21 hours a day.
Than they take the highest 3 hour peak for the month and charge $12 kWh
Roughly cost between 10 and 13 cents kWh total between the two per month. Depending on time of year. Which this time of year is the higher peak usage.

For our cars, gas is currently around $3 a gallon too.

 

[alarmguy]

Yes it does.

If your goal is the very cheapest transportation you can get, then starting with a much cheaper car always a good idea.

Lets not pretend the driving experience is remotely the same.

Ones a dog slow penalty box, the other a super quick machine capable of slaying a very high % of all gasoline vehicles 0-60 and quarter mile.

All a personal preference, if comfort, convenience, fit, finish and room is king an ICE BMW would be a preferred choice for many people.

If all one cares about is brute speed at any cost, that is what a sports car does of which there are many as well. Though ICE sports cars at the moment have the huge advantage of convenience over and EV at this moment. EV the speed over convenience at the present time.

If one cares about, convenience, reliability, economy and energy savings that is what a Prius type vehicle does.

 

[GrumpyCat]

It's more accurate to say there is a range of efficiency.

Charging efficiency depends on the volts / amps and cord length.

Its gets up to around 95% efficient at 240 @ 48 amps.

120V low amp can be worse than 25% loss.

Its not quite the way you present.

The issue is the very same systems must be powered to charge at 1440W as to charge at 9600W. If those systems consume 200W then that is a greater percentage of 1440W than of 9600W.

Then again my Tesla on a Supercharger sounds like a hovercraft when all the cooling pumps and fans kick in. Silent on 9600W L2.

9600W gets fed through the same wires as 1440W so there would be less transmission efficiency at 9600W than 1440W.

 

[Snagglefoot]

View attachment 120110
My PG&E off-peak rate is 42 cents per kWh.

Tesla Model Y LR efficiency is 26.2 kWh/100 miles according to this review.

At the time of this post, 87 octane is $5.79/gal at my local Costco.

So, the cost to power a Model Y is about the same as driving a 2023 Prius or Camry Hybrid. Is it inexpensive compared to other things? Sure. But it is definitely not "stupid cheap" like some EV owners would like you to believe.

Let’s finish this off for you. What car and mpg do you want to compare with the EV in question.

 

[UncleDave]

Its not quite the way you present.

The issue is the very same systems must be powered to charge at 1440W as to charge at 9600W. If those systems consume 200W then that is a greater percentage of 1440W than of 9600W.

Then again my Tesla on a Supercharger sounds like a hovercraft when all the cooling pumps and fans kick in. Silent on 9600W L2.

9600W gets fed through the same wires as 1440W so there would be less transmission efficiency at 9600W than 1440W.

In my research on this - there is more to it than line loss delta which is real.

At lower amperage and voltages the stepping up of the charger voltage to 4/800 and circuit that allows for reduction of ripple cause dramatic loss.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Let’s finish this off for you. What car and mpg do you want to compare with the EV in question.

Ok, let’s compare this to a Prius getting 52 mpg. For the electric car $0.42 per kWh x 26.2 kWh to go 100 miles means you can go 9 miles for a dollar worth of power. For the Prius, you can go 52 miles on a gallon of gas. One gallon is $5.79 so 52 divided by 5.79 means you can go 9 miles on a dollar worth of gas. It’s a tie. You would have to consider all the other things to make a decision. Expensive power and expensive gas.

 

[Snagglefoot]

The electric car thing works best in then Province of British Columbia. Very expensive gasoline much like the $5.79 in the posting above, but very cheap hydroelectric power in the range of $0.10 per kWh. Until they add road tax to the equation that is. It’s very clear that attraction to electric cars in California is partly driven by their outrageously expensive gasoline but tempered by their outrageously expensive electric power. As for home based roof top solar, those capital costs of the home owner have to be paid off before the bragging rights begin.

 

[alarmguy]

The electric car thing works best in then Province of British Columbia. Very expensive gasoline much like the $5.79 in the posting above, but very cheap hydroelectric power in the range of $0.10 per kWh. Until they add road tax to the equation that is. It’s very clear that attraction to electric cars in California is partly driven by their outrageously expensive gasoline but tempered by their outrageously expensive electric power. As for home based roof top solar, those capital costs of the home owner have to be paid off before the bragging rights begin.

You would need to compare the same vehicles and purchase price to know if one is more cost efficient than the other.
Then take into account if its an inconvenience to charge an EV.

 

[zyxelenator]

So, the cost to power a Model Y is about the same as driving a 2023 Prius or Camry Hybrid. Is it inexpensive compared to other things? Sure. But it is definitely not "stupid cheap" like some EV owners would like you to believe.

Not everyone has stupid expensive electric rates. Even your picture says avg rate is 14 cents. (No surprise that solar panels are so popular there, 42c per kw is very high).
My current rate is 12.7c at any time of day, previous contract was 9.7c. During those 2 contracts gas was from $1.40 to $4.20.

 

[zyxelenator]

a good website to compare the operational costs of various cars. Set your home address, your work address (or whatever place you go often), and set how many times per week. Set your gas and electric prices. Then select the cars you wish to compare.
https://gis.its.ucdavis.edu/evexplorer/#!/locations/start

 

[LDM]

a good website to compare the operational costs of various cars. Set your home address, your work address (or whatever place you go often), and set how many times per week. Set your gas and electric prices. Then select the cars you wish to compare.
https://gis.its.ucdavis.edu/evexplorer/#!/locations/start

Interesting website. I played around with it this morning for my commute, which is fairly short. Comparison between our current rates and a car getting about 30 MPG, the cost to use an electric vehicle like the Model 3 was about half the cost. $.16 kwh vs $3.80 a gallon of regular gas, which is fairly accurate for my area. But once I did the calculations to where I was paying a $1 kwh for charging, which is on the low end of what Ameren Cilco is planning on charging for electric vehicle rates here in Illinois when they implement them, the costs for the electric vehicles shot up to even more than what it costs to drive my truck back and forth to work. It was about 3 times the cost of what a 30 MPG gas car costs to drive.

 

[zyxelenator]

Yeap, it is a great tool to compare and get approximate costs before making a decision. (car price out of the door should be definitely considered too). PHEV will probably work best in your case since it gives you choice to run on gas vs electric to avoid hyped-up rates at public chargers. Most lucky folks have free EV charging at their place of work.

 

[LDM]

Yeap, it is a great tool to compare and get approximate costs before making a decision. (car price out of the door should be definitely considered too). PHEV will probably work best in your case since it gives you choice to run on gas vs electric to avoid hyped-up rates at public chargers. Most lucky folks have free EV charging at their place of work.

I have no interest in replacing my truck, which is my primary vehicle for general purpose use. I own it outright and its exactly what I wanted, 6.2L engine, max tow package, and double cab with the standard bed (I really would like a long bed but unless I get a 2500/3500 truck no one seems to make those for double cabs anymore). I also haul and tow stuff as I own several properties and need those abilities in a vehicle. My Camaros are garage queens that I drive when its nice out and I want to have some fun.

Maybe if I could get a PHEV truck at a reasonable cost it would be a worthwhile option but I can always ride my bike to work when it is nice out. Saves even more money than an electric vehicle. There isn't any chance I would consider an electric truck, cost just to purchase is outrageous and I'd have to spend another $10K+ to upgrade my electric panel for my house and garage just to be able to charge it.