Tesla at 1.2M miles, only took 14 motors & 4 batteries.

Ws6 said:
Are you considering each gram of lithium and inch of wiring or something?
Click to expand...

There are lots of cells. Then the sense lead and bms wiring IS a big hassle. The balancing boards, the entire cooling system which is on par if not more complex than an ICE. Every weld and connection point is a potential failure point. Then there’s the hv system, contactors, fuses, fets, etc. then the drives, controllers, then the motors. Oh and their cooling loops too in some cases.

Have you ever engineered and built a large battery?? I have. And I’m not trying to be a jerk or pull weight. I just know a little bit of which I speak, not just from YouTube tear downs or websites…. I see the results of safety testing and inadvertent failure. I engage with all the manufacturers. I see stuff not just in the automotive segment.
 
JHZR2 said:
There are lots of cells. Then the sense lead and bms wiring IS a big hassle. The balancing boards, the entire cooling system which is on par if not more complex than an ICE. Every weld and connection point is a potential failure point. Then there’s the hv system, contactors, fuses, fets, etc. then the drives, controllers, then the motors. Oh and their cooling loops too in some cases.

Have you ever engineered and built a large battery?? I have. And I’m not trying to be a jerk or pull weight. I just know a little bit of which I speak, not just from YouTube tear downs or websites…. I see the results of safety testing and inadvertent failure. I engage with all the manufacturers. I see stuff not just in the automotive segment.
Click to expand...
In my car, 384 cells. The packs and cooling are nothing super complex. No I have not assembled a pack, but have seen the teardown, and its not a huge ordeal.
 
JHZR2 said:
Wait, nothing ever has to be replaced on EVs. They’re service free. They have zero parts…

Oh wait…
Click to expand...
+1 Truth be told a lot of people seem to think that's the case and some even preach it. All they seem to talk about is how great the batteries are, and how long they last and how little they degrade. They seem to forget about the motor/motors. When called out they'll often say the motors are problem free. LOL Bottom line there's no free lunch!!!!
 
demarpaint said:
+1 Truth be told a lot of people seem to think that's the case and some even preach it. All they seem to talk about is how great the batteries are, and how long they last and how little they degrade. They seem to forget about the motor/motors. When called out they'll often say the motors are problem free. LOL Bottom line there's no free lunch!!!!
Click to expand...
I dunno. I get to drive an 11 second wagon that's perfectly streetable and super cheap to maintain and fuel.
 
Ws6 said:
In my car, 384 cells. The packs and cooling are nothing super complex. No I have not assembled a pack, but have seen the teardown, and its not a huge ordeal.
Click to expand...
Look, I wish you the best. I do.

But realize that 384 cells means a LOT more series parallel connections. If laser welded it’s well into the thousands. If torqued, it’s still 700+. Module to module coolant connections are still leak sources as they age. And then liquid cooled power electronics, drives, motors.

It’s just not as simple as being like four monolithic items as some try to make it sound. It’s many, many thousands of failure points that any one can bring the system to a safety critical scenario or worse.

And in that regard they’re really miracles of modern engineering. Enough repeat parts that QC/QA can get reasonable statistical data. Enough knowledge out there to get repeatable manufacturing.

Time will tell how the failure modes go. I certainly wouldn’t buy an EV the way I would a 1980s Mercedes Diesel despite all the moving parts in the drivetrain. Nor would I buy it the same way I would a very old drill or saw, despite both using supposedly tried and true motor technology.

Time will tell about failure modes. We’ve seen some that impact performance or safety.
 
JHZR2 said:
Look, I wish you the best. I do.

But realize that 384 cells means a LOT more series parallel connections. If laser welded it’s well into the thousands. If torqued, it’s still 700+. Module to module coolant connections are still leak sources as they age. And then liquid cooled power electronics, drives, motors.

It’s just not as simple as being like four monolithic items as some try to make it sound. It’s many, many thousands of failure points that any one can bring the system to a safety critical scenario or worse.

And in that regard they’re really miracles of modern engineering. Enough repeat parts that QC/QA can get reasonable statistical data. Enough knowledge out there to get repeatable manufacturing.

Time will tell how the failure modes go. I certainly wouldn’t buy an EV the way I would a 1980s Mercedes Diesel despite all the moving parts in the drivetrain. Nor would I buy it the same way I would a very old drill or saw, despite both using supposedly tried and true motor technology.

Time will tell about failure modes. We’ve seen some that impact performance or safety.
Click to expand...

This.

Hands down this. And ICE has had over 100 years to perfect that. And it’s hard to beat something that is tried and true. EV will get there. It has a lot to figure out….

This is why it is going to take years, minimum, to really see people get on board.
 
JHZR2 said:
Look, I wish you the best. I do.

But realize that 384 cells means a LOT more series parallel connections. If laser welded it’s well into the thousands. If torqued, it’s still 700+. Module to module coolant connections are still leak sources as they age. And then liquid cooled power electronics, drives, motors.

It’s just not as simple as being like four monolithic items as some try to make it sound. It’s many, many thousands of failure points that any one can bring the system to a safety critical scenario or worse.

And in that regard they’re really miracles of modern engineering. Enough repeat parts that QC/QA can get reasonable statistical data. Enough knowledge out there to get repeatable manufacturing.

Time will tell how the failure modes go. I certainly wouldn’t buy an EV the way I would a 1980s Mercedes Diesel despite all the moving parts in the drivetrain. Nor would I buy it the same way I would a very old drill or saw, despite both using supposedly tried and true motor technology.

Time will tell about failure modes. We’ve seen some that impact performance or safety.
Click to expand...
It's battery cells inside of a few dozen modules set on a coolant plate inside of a case. What you're saying is more like "dude! Your cell phone is so unreliable because of all of the circuit board pathways in it!" I mean, yeah, it has a lot, and I'm sure some fail, but noone with an S24 is stressing over it, and once people get more used to EVs, same same. I mean, people drive manuals with a steel sawblade doing 8k rpm a few inches from their ankles and be eating a burger doing makeup completely unbothered, Lol!

 
Last edited:
joekingcorvette said:
Any vehicle can hit a million miles if you keep on repairing it. I agree the Toyota hybrids are hard to beat for mileage and reliability.
Click to expand...
And you don't care about giving up your weekends to fix it- or breaking when it's totally inconvenient.
 
I am more curious of the 200k-300k life which is realistic 10-15 years . Guessing most modern EV can do on original battery and motor.

With respect to bragging on military items they are built more on off and never mass produced.
 
JHZR2 said:
Time will tell how the failure modes go. I certainly wouldn’t buy an EV the way I would a 1980s Mercedes Diesel despite all the moving parts in the drivetrain. Nor would I buy it the same way I would a very old drill or saw, despite both using supposedly tried and true motor technology.

Time will tell about failure modes. We’ve seen some that impact performance or safety.
Click to expand...
Good point. My guess is there will be issues and there will be improvements, like most products. And some will be better than others.
 
Ws6 said:
It's battery cells inside of a few dozen modules set on a coolant plate inside of a case. What you're saying is more like "dude! Your cell phone is so unreliable because of all of the circuit board pathways in it!" I mean, yeah, it has a lot, and I'm sure some fail, but noone with an S24 is stressing over it, and once people get more used to EVs, same same. I mean, people drive manuals with a steel sawblade doing 8k rpm a few inches from their ankles and be eating a burger doing makeup completely unbothered, Lol!

Click to expand...

You are engaged in a debate with someone who develops, designs and builds power systems for US Navy.

He knows every point of failure because he tests them to failure.

They are not as simple, or reliable, as folks, including you, assume.
 
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