Tempest should love this one

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We create the hole, which vacuums our local talent into obsolescence due to cost. Or, perhaps said another way, you can't bring some up without bringing all down. Locally or globally.

You assume a fixed economy which is clearly not the case. There used to be a few million people on this planet and they were much worse off than we are.
There are now ~6 billion people on the planet and most of them are better off than our predacessors.

This alone blows the zero sum game out of the water.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
We create the hole, which vacuums our local talent into obsolescence due to cost. Or, perhaps said another way, you can't bring some up without bringing all down. Locally or globally.

You assume a fixed economy which is clearly not the case. There used to be a few million people on this planet and they were much worse off than we are.
There are now ~6 billion people on the planet and most of them are better off than our predacessors.

This alone blows the zero sum game out of the water.


When considered over decades. All of the current conversation is talking about a reasonably current timeframe.

Actually, I would even question the idea of overall improvement. What percentage have improved at all, and what percentage of that percentage has improved when you consider the debt that has been correspondingly acccumulated?
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
We create the hole, which vacuums our local talent into obsolescence due to cost. Or, perhaps said another way, you can't bring some up without bringing all down. Locally or globally.

You assume a fixed economy which is clearly not the case. There used to be a few million people on this planet and they were much worse off than we are.
There are now ~6 billion people on the planet and most of them are better off than our predacessors.

This alone blows the zero sum game out of the water.



You use this cliche statement all too often ...yet I don't really think you understand it. Maybe I mean that you misuse it to a great degree. Nobody actually subscribes to the "zero sum gain" notion. What you deflect with this catchall (like saying stuff like "mob rule" where democracy is offered ..or "the Soviets proved that it doesn't work" when more socialized notions are entertained) is that "WE" as a nation are getting POORER. It doesn't matter that the rest of the globe is doing a fan dandy job of getting more out of less $$ and improving THEIR LIVES. OURS are tanking.

You only offer more of it. You cannot sell your philosophy for its merits beyond some "principle" ..yet being principled along the lines of humanity is a crime that you feel is against nature.

Being principled for the sake of distinction and dominion above and over others. I really need to see the philosopher ..other than Pol Pot or Stalin ..or perhaps Machiavelli, that promotes this notion.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest

You assume a fixed economy which is clearly not the case. There used to be a few million people on this planet and they were much worse off than we are.
There are now ~6 billion people on the planet and most of them are better off than our predacessors.

This alone blows the zero sum game out of the water.


Sure, having a warlord grabbing all the resource and create a well run dictatorship is also not a zero sum game. Look at Nigeria. They produce many times more oil than they did back in the 70s, but are people better off? Look at West Africa, their GDP is much higher due to the blood diamond, but are the residents better off when these revenue funds civil wars and ethnic cleansing?


And you assume that it is a positive distribution for all the people.
 
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And you assume that it is a positive distribution for all the people.


Oh ...no he doesn't. Don't even think that this is anywhere on his radar.

He only figures that he'll be the Sheriff of Rottingham protecting the noble's game preserve and hunting down Robin Hood and the rest of the vermin like him.
 
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And you assume that it is a positive distribution for all the people.

Please show me where I have made this assumption??

It's amazing how people will put words into your mouth to make a point.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
"WE" as a nation are getting POORER.

And you still have yet to provide ANYTHING to prove this.




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Oh ..pal ..Oh..(ride the wave) ..but you've proved so very much in that statement ...Oh ..the pain ..please ..no more..

I need only remain mute
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I rest my case, ladies and gentlemen
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If we're not getting poorer, then surely the rest of the world is becoming wealthier. Two sides of the same coin.

We are in debt more then the THE ENTIRE WORLD's ability to pay it off.

If that means we're becoming wealthier, then I'd rather be poor thank you!
 
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We are in debt more then the THE ENTIRE WORLD's ability to pay it off.

Thanks to government spending and promises. ANY government can out spend it's ability to generate income.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
We are in debt more then the THE ENTIRE WORLD's ability to pay it off.

Thanks to government spending and promises. ANY government can out spend it's ability to generate income.


(warning - you are going to see a Tempestismistic rhetorical repelling action)

So you're admitting that we're poorer, correct?



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That we are being spent into oblivion? YES..as I have stated MANY times.

This will cause very high taxes for future generations. Of course, in Gary's universe, taxes have no impact on economic activity, so it shouldn't matter.

These are after all "investments", as you have asserted, into projects that should pay dividends into the future, correct?

So according to your own beliefs, debt shouldn't matter...
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It's my opinion that technology - especially "personal technology" if you will, hides the fact that we're quickly spiraling down the proverbial toilet. Heck, we're all arguing about it right now from all corners of the world! I have A/C, heating, a kitchen where I can cook a nice meal quickly. The VAST majority of people in the USA have access to this technology.

Still doesn't mean we're not doomed though. Technology just hides it, especially TV.
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest


So according to your own beliefs, debt shouldn't matter...
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Originally Posted By: Tempest


It's amazing how people will put words into your mouth to make a point.


Where has Gary said debt doesn't matter?
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: Tempest


So according to your own beliefs, debt shouldn't matter...
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Originally Posted By: Tempest


It's amazing how people will put words into your mouth to make a point.


Where has Gary said debt doesn't matter?
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I laid out the logic right in the post.
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More deflection and avoidance


Quote:
That we are being spent into oblivion? YES..as I have stated MANY times.

This will cause very high taxes for future generations. Of course, in Gary's universe, taxes have no impact on economic activity, so it shouldn't matter.


Over simplification. I've asked you to tell me the difference of a government spent dollar vs. a privately spent dollar and you've only offered more deflecting philosophical statements about being held up at gunpoint.

You've morphed this over to DEBT. Tax and spend ends up in the same economy as earnings and earnings that are taxed NOW.

Debt, however, lasts an eternity.

If you go into debt for stuff that lasts 50 years, then it's probably money well spent. If you go into debt for a party that's over in 8 years ..but the bill lasts a life time(s) ..that's just DUMB.


Now you may proceed with your next evasive maneuver.
 
Quote:
Over simplification. I've asked you to tell me the difference of a government spent dollar vs. a privately spent dollar

So taxes don't matter?

Quote:
If you go into debt for stuff that lasts 50 years, then it's probably money well spent. If you go into debt for a party that's over in 8 years ..but the bill lasts a life time(s) ..that's just DUMB.

You are in favor of Social Security, Medicade, Medicare, Welfare, Government run health care...etc. These types of programs are the major bulk of taxes, yet are only good for the year they are spent and collected.

Sounds pretty dumb by your own standard.
 
Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,
A tale of a fateful trip
That Tempest will take you on
Thinking that you all aren't hip.

The point may be a simple one,
The facts all plain and sure.
But that just can't stay that way
For a three post tour, a three post tour.

The evidence started getting rough,
The pointless point was tossed
If not for the invisible elephant in his room
The militia's movement would be lost ..the movement would be lost.

The trip refused to let down
For it would never land
The only explanation that can be had
Grinds in the skin like sand
 
Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
We create the hole, which vacuums our local talent into obsolescence due to cost. Or, perhaps said another way, you can't bring some up without bringing all down. Locally or globally.

You assume a fixed economy which is clearly not the case. There used to be a few million people on this planet and they were much worse off than we are.
There are now ~6 billion people on the planet and most of them are better off than our predacessors.

This alone blows the zero sum game out of the water.


But why are they better off??? Why? Because of first-world tax dollars driving technology? Because of charity, much (billions) coming out of my tax dolars? Handouts? Wheat? immunizations? technology?

What brought the rest of the world up was our charity and business decisions in chasing a cheaper laborer... from which the lower 95% or so benefit, and the upper 5% or so profit on.

Those who profit do better... those who benefit, just benefit for the widget they bought at that moment. Like I said in another thread... they danced as the titanic sunk.

So my thought is that WE brought the rest of the world up... by our practices and our decisions. At cost to us. Now, meanwhile we were accumulating debt like nobody's business. Debt = cannot afford... So we were allowing the upper 5% to profit, so the lower 95% could "benefit", meanwhile writing checks that they could not cash, in the form of the national debt.

Would SS and medicare last a LOT longer had the money been put away instead of spent? Would half of the issues be so if we hadnt indebted ourselves to the point of no return?

We brought them up, with the sweat of our brows and the taxes from our pockets. Some profited, some "benefitted". Only very few win, even if most seem to maintain the status quo via education and hard work.

Meanwhile our poor decisions errode the ability to sustain.

That is off topic anyway, compared to the article. I feel that there must be "levels" or groups or classes of people, because there is a natural distribution in everything, intelligence, health and drive included. The article in my opinion shows people, frought with idiocy and stupid decisions, stuck poor because they cause it. While as mentioned, there has to be a distribution, and I feel that there is a way for most anybody (but not everybody) to move to roughly the median, I cannot feel sorry for the people in the article, who in my opinion, practice in self-destructive behaviors.
 
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