Tempest should love this one

JHZR2

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I about puked. Please... the self-destructive behaviors I picked out of the commentary on most of the folks in this article were quite obvious. So the poor pay far more money for everything, eh? That is what the title of the article claims - "The High Cost of Poverty: Why the Poor Pay More. Poor? Pay Up. Having Little Money Often Means No Car, No Washing Machine, No Checking Account And No Break From Fees and High Prices." It is a good read though - all the same. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053.html?g=0
 
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 Quote:
When you are poor, you don't have the luxury of throwing a load into the washing machine and then taking your morning jog while it cycles. You wait until Monday afternoon, when the laundromat is most likely to be empty, and you put all of that laundry from four kids into four heaps, bundle it in sheets, load a cart and drag it to the corner.
Why do you have 4 kids if you are poor? And they probably wonder why they remain poor...
 Quote:
Like food: You don't have a car to get to a supermarket, much less to Costco or Trader Joe's, where the middle class goes to save money. You don't have three hours to take the bus. So you buy groceries at the corner store, where a gallon of milk costs an extra dollar.
They don't know ANYONE with a car? How about a taxi? Do a group buy with your neighbors in a friend's car at Costco or some other cheaper store. Of course this is all too much effort and work so we should force other people to give them money...
 
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Let me tell a little tiny short story about myself. My first real job after college, I made around $8/hour. I was living in a crusty part of town with plenty of crime. My desire to leave the area was immense. I lived on an extreme budget and had no debt. I didn't "cash" my checks. I made it. There is a reason there are no banks, grocery stores, etc in these areas. I'll leave it at that.
 
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The points illustrated in the article are quite true. I don't know why this was addressed to Tempest. Any person with a little bit of empathy can put himself or herself in the shoes of the less fortunate.
 
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I don't see whats offensive or wrong with this article. It is pretty true and realistic. Yes, you can question/criticize the actions that got these people to where they are, but once they are there, this article tells it like it is. But in general, my sympathy level is low - you don't like your staion in life, work extremely, soul-crushingly hard, and you will probably get out of it. Lots have.
 
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 Originally Posted By: pbm
The moral of the story is .........don't be poor.
This is equivalent to saying the lower half of the population should not be below average.
 
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Many years ago, it was pointed out on TV news that the Hartford Courant distributed editions of the newspaper to people in the South End that had no coupons; Most people bussed it to the north end of Wethersfield to shop. No options, so why give coupons? Suburban editions of the same paper had fliers from all sorts of stores, since people easily could choose to drive elsewhere. It may be tougher to make progress when there are forces such as these working against you.
 
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While the article has some Garyesque wisearse backhanded jabs, it's pretty much accurate. I'm sorta with addyguy to a decent degree. Without this dysfunction, there's no room for them elsewhere anyway. It would be more functional despair (insert Tempest rolling eyes without any sensible comment on the unemployed we already have ..with nothing to do with them). There are ways to manage poverty ..but it's very fragile. Given the typical challenges that any/everyone faces, the less depth to your personal or family support network, the more likely you are to falter. There are plenty of poverty traps. Even lower income traps ..even by agencies like PHEEA. You fall behind on your payment by a day, you pay a penalty. If you don't pay the penalty, the penalty isn't static, you then pay a penalty on not paying the penalty ... This a boobytrap. This is not a way to keep well funded households on time with student loan payments, it's a trap looking for prey. It finds it. Maybe some can make a decent argument that they deserve it. We tend to put them on a drain gutter to a sewer instead of a solid floor of little risk/little benefit. It's always punitive.
 

JHZR2

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 Originally Posted By: CivicFan
The points illustrated in the article are quite true. I don't know why this was addressed to Tempest. Any person with a little bit of empathy can put himself or herself in the shoes of the less fortunate.
Because it was disgusting, and while my intent was (and it needs to be) that this remain P free, it still rings true to the stupidity of some groups and situations. Mr. Tempest and I may not agree on everything, but he does post interesting, thought provoking articles, which, though often bordering on P, are quite excellent. THis one was a mix of interesting and ridiculous, and I figured he might like to pull some good quotes from it ;\)
 

JHZR2

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 Originally Posted By: addyguy
I don't see whats offensive or wrong with this article. It is pretty true and realistic. Yes, you can question/criticize the actions that got these people to where they are, but once they are there, this article tells it like it is. But in general, my sympathy level is low - you don't like your staion in life, work extremely, soul-crushingly hard, and you will probably get out of it. Lots have.
I agree... I don't deny. But it is kind of like what Pablo said about his $8/hr job in the crusty part of town... I especially like the quote by the guy who cannot get a bank account because he "lost" his driver's license... Like he isnt leaving about eighteen things out there...
 
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50:50 Groucho. The notion was that there was going to be some magical "lifting" of the alleged oppressed masses into the promised land. It didn't occur and for good cause. But now you're seeing fully integrated ghettos ...etc..etc. The bank thing is a real issue. If you're in the bank database ..there is no coming back from it. You can't even make amends.
 

JHZR2

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No, but there is a difference. A poor person who is educated and non-lazy has a hard time passing as poor. Generally, they may be seen as "poor" in terms of their material things, but will carry themselves in a different way which distinguishes them from the typical poor person. Granted, there can be uneducated and lazy non-poor people, but I equate that to perfume on a pig. Generally the uneducated and lazy aspects can be equated (IMO) to why they are poor, and usually, though they may exist in areas with lousy schools, etc., there are straightforward ways to rise above the situation. Maybe not from the poor house to fifth avenue, but out of the garbage described in the article.
 
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Silicon Valley
 Originally Posted By: addyguy
I don't see whats offensive or wrong with this article. It is pretty true and realistic.
It is true and realistic, but can you blame the society for failing people who live in an unprofitable area? There is a reason businesses don't want to open there. Crime is high and no profit to be made, and if you open a store, you take a risk of being rob (I knew stores owners in slum and they do get rob once in a while) and you have to charge more to compensate for the loss and the risk. You can blame the government for not providing jobs, not having enough police, not having enough transit infrastructure, but blaming the price because there is nothing the people who live there can do is too far, IMO. I don't think you can blame the people who live there either, but sometimes they have so much negative influences from their family and friends (bad influences) that it is almost hopeless to change them. Now the liberal side of me: Costco membership? You kidding me, that's stupid to expect them to have a costco membership. They're not cheaper than places that doesn't need no membership like Walmart and FoodMax. Let me tell you why people love to shop at the club store: they don't want the people in the slum to shop with them and this is one of the best way to get rid of the slum dweller without being discrimination. Take a cab or borrow a car? You need serious mental help if you think these people have money to take a cab all the time when they shop for food. It will be cheaper to just suck it up and buy from the local store that charge a few bucks higher. How many slum dweller can afford to take a cab? And the quality of people who live there are all over the place, how many can borrow a car or should be allowed to borrow a car? "Why don't they eat cake if they cannot afford bread?"
 
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 Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
Many years ago, it was pointed out on TV news that the Hartford Courant distributed editions of the newspaper to people in the South End that had no coupons; Most people bussed it to the north end of Wethersfield to shop. No options, so why give coupons? Suburban editions of the same paper had fliers from all sorts of stores, since people easily could choose to drive elsewhere. It may be tougher to make progress when there are forces such as these working against you.
I think this is a more controversial issue than the issue we see in the poorly written article. As a society, not against any particular organization or person, we treat people differently based on their financial well being and their likability. We give advantages to people that are more advantages due to various reason. Mostly because either we want advantages back as a return (i.e. they will help me with their influences), or they have a lower risk (i.e. they will buy more profitable stuff if I sell them the loss leaders, they are less likely to steal in my store, less likely to not pay my bills, etc). It is like a poker game, those who have more chips have more leverage, and therefore more influence and power, yet in real life you cannot bluff your way if you don't have the chips, and the better off people are not obligated to match your bid. This is why the poor are always in a disadvantage, why they cry foul. Yet it is ingrained as part of the game that if you remove this advantage, those that are rich will also cry foul. Hence the deadlock.
 
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I tend to look at the kick them to the curb mentality as more of convenience. It has merit in that the whole issue is hopelessly complex and is hard to manage from outside ..and too challenging to be fixed from within. It's got its own paint chip theory breeder reactor going there. We don't have severe urban issues here in my tiny Pottstown provincial former industrial hamlet. Our underclass is mostly passive and prey on each other. We have all the accessories for the poor. Pawn shops ..check cashers ..a mini=mart that costs a fortune and nothing else within practical walking distance. All the work of merit requires mobility here. There is SEPTA and the rates aren't necessarily too high, but many jobs just don't have access to public trans. Many of these urban poor cannot be repaired or altered to make it out of that situation. That's, more or less, the limit of their potential. I really wouldn't have too much of a problem with them staying there if it were a more functional lower existence. That is, safe, clean, secure. There's not really much the individual can do to alter those conditions. You can only move out of them. You're still left with a sewer that the lower dwellers must occupy.
 
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