Talk Some Sense into an Oil Thickie?

[kschachn]

The question was asked about Honda engine, why are we talking about VW engines? There is no dye test for Honda and 0w-20 is just a recommendation, no where in the manual it says it will void warranty

Yes correct. Also neither in the VW manuals FWIW.

 

[ZeeOSix]

VW uses dye as well. Easy to detect if the wrong oil was used.

Does VW say anywhere that if oil without their dye in it is used that the warranty will be void?

Would VW void the warranty if they tested oil and it didn't show their dye even though it was the recommended viscosity & spec ... regardless if they say it in any OM, etc?

 

[ZeeOSix]

What is thicker, what is thinner? Oil being a fluid is not a gas. It does not compress. But oil pump bypass does happen and oil filter bypass does happen. With oil drained to the lowest oil passage point what is your delta P across your oil filter at startup. What if the concern is lubrication to the cylinders at start up and you have oil jets.

As mentioned earelier, the W rating is most important to prevent any engine damage during very cold start-ups. You could have a 0W-60 motor oil, and it would not harm anything during cold start-ups or while at oprating temperature (100 C).

 

[ZeeOSix]

Piston cooling jets aren't there to lube the bores, as the name indicates.

I'm sure there is still some oil splash from the jets that helps lubricate the cylinder ... more so than just crank bearing side leakage splashing would do.

 

[Bill_W]

Negative. Plugged oil return holes, which led to the oil control rings getting packed with carbonaceous crud and then sticking in their grooves. This stopped their function: Oil control, which in turn led to copious oil burning. Saturn had the same problem.

https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/piston-oil-holes.353286/

I am rebuilding my corolla 1ZZFE engine because it was burning oil. Got my new pistons yesterday and wanted to compare them with the old ones to see if there really was a difference between the two .

Three of the old pistons had stuck oil control rings. They had carbon between the two oil control rings and a build up of carbon behind the rings of almost 1/16 of an inch. Also all four of the oil drillings that go from behind the oil control rings to the under side of the piston crown were totally blocked. The carbon went completley around the piston oil grove but was a quite a bit thinner over the blocked holes. The forth piston did not have stuck oil rings and even though it had quite a bit of carbon beneath the rings, the oil drillings were open ( There was no carbon within an inch of the holes) .

I cleaned up one old piston and compared it with the new one from Toyota.
At first glance they looked exactly the same, but I could see differences in the casting marks and numbers, same overall design though. Same weight( a couple of grams lighter), same diameter. There is a small difference in the cutouts for the valves though. The biggest difference is the oil drillings / holes behind the oil control rings. Instead of two small holes on each side over the skirt ( about 1/16 of an inch dia.) now there are four holes on each side almost double in size ( about an 1/8 of an inch dia. ). The holes are also drilled lower in the ring grove( actually about half of the hole is in the grove, and about half is below the grove in the piston body). You can see the bottom half of the holes even when the oil rings are in place.

The old oil control rings had very little wear compared to the new rings, again same overall design also.

Apparently when the oil holes become blocked , oil is no longer directed from between the rings to the underside of the piston and then to the crankcase, but is instead burned/carbonized onto the piston causing the carbon build up ,stuck rings and burning oil.

This is what Toyota says is the fix to the oil burning problem.

Look here to see a Toyota tech document, scroll down to attachment : http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=75536

You will have to register to read the attachment, but it is worth it.

This is the video that I saw that clued me to low tension rings…

But you have expierence.

 

[camrydriver111]

That guy is probably smarter than the majority of people here.

He is regurgitating corporate lines.

If you want to listen to corporate spin, watch his channel.

If you want to learn the truth, read BITOG.

 

[OVERKILL]

I'm sure there is still some oil splash from the jets that helps lubricate the cylinder ... more so than just crank bearing side leakage splashing would do.

Could be, but it clearly doesn't do much for longevity, given how long a 2V modular lasts.

 

[OVERKILL]

This is the video that I saw that clued me to low tension rings…

But you have expierence.

I don't typically watch these Youtube videos (don't like giving the clicks) but it appears he's talking about modern Toyota engines (the ones that spec like 0W-16) consuming a bit of oil. Those aren't the notorious "Toyota Oil Burners", which was an older series of engines that consumed obscene amounts of oil once the return holes got plugged up. As I noted, Saturn had the same problem.

Low tension rings have been used for ages, here's a 2004 thread on this board discussing them:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...ngs-the-reason-for-lower-viscosity-oils.4926/

They are not, by themselves, a driver of high oil consumption.

 

[cheesepuffs2]

VW uses dye as well. Easy to detect if the wrong oil was used.

Don't all the brands have markers in their oil so that if you blame them for a failure they can prove if it was or wasn't even actually their oil at play?

 

[Bill_W]

I don't typically watch these Youtube videos (don't like giving the clicks) but it appears he's talking about modern Toyota engines (the ones that spec like 0W-16) consuming a bit of oil. Those aren't the notorious "Toyota Oil Burners", which was an older series of engines that consumed obscene amounts of oil once the return holes got plugged up. As I noted, Saturn had the same problem.

Low tension rings have been used for ages, here's a 2004 thread on this board discussing them:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...ngs-the-reason-for-lower-viscosity-oils.4926/

They are not, by themselves, a driver of high oil consumption.

Kinda put what you said to what he said but the oil control rings can carbon up and stick. Locking up on one side it can dig into one side of the cylinder. For me that video sinks in cause I do a lot of short trips. My OCI is 6 months and has nothing to do with mileage. Absolutely zero oil loss.

 

[OVERKILL]

Kinda put what you said to what he said but the oil control rings can carbon up and stick. Locking up on one side it can dig into one side of the cylinder. For me that video sinks in cause I do a lot of short trips. My OCI is 6 months and has nothing to do with mileage. Absolutely zero oil loss.

Yes, the oil control rings can carbon up even if the drainback holes are not plugged (though plugged holes will lead to them carboning up) if the oil used is not of sufficient quality to avoid deposits in this area.

This is why you'll often see me make comments about the ring lands on engines that look ugly under the valve cover. If you have deposits in areas that don't get super hot, you've got much worse going on where it does.

I'm sure you saw @wwillson's pictures from his Durango where this carbonaceous grit was ending up in his filter? I experienced the same thing with my Expedition on Mobil 1 after its life before us on bulk. This is almost assuredly being liberated from the ring land area, as it's the consistency of the stuff I've found there during tear-down.

 

[Bill_W]

I don't typically watch these Youtube videos (don't like giving the clicks) but it appears he's talking about modern Toyota engines (the ones that spec like 0W-16) consuming a bit of oil. Those aren't the notorious "Toyota Oil Burners", which was an older series of engines that consumed obscene amounts of oil once the return holes got plugged up. As I noted, Saturn had the same problem.

Low tension rings have been used for ages, here's a 2004 thread on this board discussing them:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...ngs-the-reason-for-lower-viscosity-oils.4926/

They are not, by themselves, a driver of high oil consumption.

At minute 3.15 He says the piston comes from an engine that Toyota had a “campaign” on the engine(#?) 2007-09. They replaced the pistons on that engine. He says due to low tension piston rings. Costly admitted Toyota issue to change out. Kudos to Toyota to step up. But not spec. 0w16…

 

[OVERKILL]

At minute 3.15 He says the piston comes from an engine that Toyota had a “campaign” on the engine(#?) 2007-09. They replaced the pistons on that engine. He says due to low tension piston rings. Costly admitted Toyota issue to change out. Kudos to Toyota to step up. But not spec. 0w16…

If you noticed in the forum thread I shared earlier, the pistons were totally redesigned to have more, and larger, drain holes, because the issue wasn't the rings, it was the pistons. I'm going to assume buddy's conclusion is wrong. As I said, low tension rings have been used for decades without issue, but there are several specific examples of poorly designed pistons (like the Toyota ones) that have inadequately sized and insufficiently numbered drain holes that lead to a loss of the oil control function.

 

[Retirednow]

I’ve done a scary thing and trialling 25W-70 instead of my usual 40W-70. Out of warranty of course..