Synthetic oil vs. a slow coolant leak...

[Dick in Falls Church]

While you consider your options, it might be prudent to change to a propylene glycol antifreeze. Should this get into the oil, it normally will cause less damage.

Gut feeling--were it mine, I'd probably go with 3,000 mile oil samples and see how it goes.

Had an acquaintance who got a similar report back--evidence of coolant, but no evidence of accelerated wear. His son, who was driving the car, said somtehing like "Oh, yeah, I've had to add a little coolant regularly for the past couple years." Also using synthetic.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
used oil analysis don't bear that out for Mobil 1. Shipo's got a serious coolant leak.

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How does 0.29% equate into a serious leak? Also.. are you saying there's no sodium UOA mixups with Mobil 1 oils?

 

[Triple_Se7en]

quote:

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Originally posted by Triple_Se7en:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
used oil analysis don't bear that out for Mobil 1. Shipo's got a serious coolant leak.

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How does 0.29% equate into a serious leak? I thought the big concerns entered at 0.50% or higher? Also.. are you saying there's no sodium UOA mixup-associations with Mobil 1 oils?

---

 

[Triple_Se7en]

[

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray H:
[qb] used oil analysis don't bear that out for Mobil 1. Shipo's got a serious coolant leak.

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How does 0.29% equate into a serious leak? I thought the real concerns entered at 0.50% or higher? Also.. are you saying there's no sodium UOA mixup-associations with Mobil 1 oils? Is this just with the Mobil 5000 oils?

 

[Shipo]

quote:

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Originally posted by **** in Falls Church:
While you consider your options, it might be prudent to change to a propylene glycol antifreeze. Should this get into the oil, it normally will cause less damage.

Gut feeling--were it mine, I'd probably go with 3,000 mile oil samples and see how it goes.

Had an acquaintance who got a similar report back--evidence of coolant, but no evidence of accelerated wear. His son, who was driving the car, said something like "Oh, yeah, I've had to add a little coolant regularly for the past couple years." Also using synthetic.

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Thanks for the tip. I've never heard that propylene glycol antifreeze will do less damage in a situation where it contaminates engine oil. I took a look and I found any number of suppliers, Peak (makers of Sierra) and Amsoil included. What I find interesting here is that as a group they all make certain claims (toxicity, biodegradable, long life...), however, none of them made any claims about being less damaging to an engine if oil contamination occurs.

Another item I found of interest is that in addition to all of the claims made by the various manufacturers, Amsoil claims the following:
Stops Leaks
AMSOIL Antifreeze & Coolant adheres to metal. It self-seals hairline cracks in welds and seams to prevent leaks, without additional stop-leak products or fibrous materials.

Interesting, especially within the context of this thread. Now I find myself wondering which of the following questions has an answer of "Yes":
1) Is Amsoil's claim of "self-sealing" a standard property of all Propylene Glycol antifreeze?
2) Does Amsoil do something special to their Propylene Glycol antifreeze to give it "self-sealing" properties that other makers don't?
3) Is Amsoil's claim of "self-sealing" simply marketing hype?
4) If I was to buy Sierra antifreeze can I expect the same "self-sealing" properties that Amsoil is claiming?

Yeesh, I'm starting to get more confused by the minute.

 

[TooSlick]

Shipo,

I'd say those are excellent results considering the coolant contamination and high level of fuel dilution. This is what I think I'd do:

1) Test the next two batches of oil after 7500 miles to see if this condition is stable and that bearing wear isn't trending up. If it seems okay, visually check the oil frequently to look for signs of sludging. Test the oil occasionally - say every third batch of oil you run.

2) Change to a PG coolant - as **** mentioned in the event of coolant contamination PG coolants are less agressive towards bearing materials. The study I saw was done by Detroit Diesel...they put 5% straight PG right into the crankcase of a Series 60 engine and ran it at full power for an hour on a dyno with no adverse affects. The same test done with EG coolant resulted in rapid sludging and bearing failure....

TS

 

[TooSlick]

That's a pretty serious leak...unless you're willing to test every batch of oil you run to monitor the condition, I'd get the problem fixed. You will eventually destroy the main/rod bearings and this coolant will generate an acidic sludge that will build up over time and be difficult to remove.

Posting the analysis results would be helpful.

TS

 

[Shipo]

Regarding remediation steps:

First off, thanks for all of your well intentioned responses. I really appreciate it.

My first inclination is to simply keep doing what I've been doing for the last 100,000 miles or so with one small change. Prior to this last Oil Change I'd been running the Mobil 1 with a 10-12K OCI (which only works out to four to five months and current usage levels). For this latest change, I specifically did the change at 7,500 because that is as far as I can drive that van without adding any make-up oil. The "small change" that I referred to is that I'm probably going to reduce my OCI to 7,500 miles. Assuming that I'm correct about how long that van has had the coolant leak, my bet is that I can probably get at least another 50,000 miles out of it before it finally croaks.

Think about it this way, the car is a 1998 DGC with nearly 120,000 on the clock at this point. What's it worth as a "Private Party" resale? Maybe $2,800. Yeesh!

The other possibility is to enlist my 12 year old son (prying him away from the raft of girls that keep calling) for a weekend and just rebuild the top end. I've already found two shops that have reconditioned heads on the shelf ($150 per head at one shop, $175 at the other), and a full gasket set (with new head bolts) is only another $250. So, for ~$600 or so plus a weekend of labor I can redo the entire top end and then keep the van around for a few more years and use it as a "Kid Car" for my two soon to be teenagers.

 

[Shipo]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
That's a pretty serious leak...unless you're willing to test every batch of oil you run to monitor the condition, I'd get the problem fixed. You will eventually destroy the main/rod bearings and this coolant will generate an acidic sludge that will build up over time and be difficult to remove.

Posting the analysis results would be helpful.

TS

---

Ask and you shall receive.

Oil analysis results:
Basic facts:
- Miles on Oil: ------- 7,489
- Miles on Veh: -- 115,489
- Sample Date: -- 17-Jun-2006

Category ----------------- Used Sample ----- Virgin Sample ---- Universal Avgs.
Aluminum ----------------------- 4 ----------------- 1 ---------------- 5
Chromium ----------------------- 1 ----------------- 0 ---------------- 1
Iron --------------------------- 25 ----------------- 0 --------------- 33
Copper ------------------------- 8 ----------------- 0 ---------------- 7
Lead --------------------------- 7 ----------------- 1 ---------------- 5
Tin ----------------------------- 0 ----------------- 0 ---------------- 1
Molybdenum ------------------- 88 ---------------- 71 --------------- 51
Nickel -------------------------- 0 ----------------- 0 ----------------- 1
Manganese --------------------- 0 ----------------- 0 ----------------- 1
Silver -------------------------- 0 ------------------ 0 ---------------- 0
Titanium ----------------------- 0 ------------------ 0 ---------------- 0
Potassium -------------------- 245 ----------------- 1 ---------------- 9
Boron ------------------------- 50 --------------- 146 --------------- 29
Silicon ------------------------ 15 ------------------ 5 --------------- 21
Sodium ---------------------- 146 ------------------ 4 --------------- 20
Calcium -------------------- 2,714 -------------- 2,650 ------------ 2,424
Magnesium ------------------- 23 ----------------- 14 --------------- 252
Phosphorus ------------------ 861----------------- 790 -------------- 788
Zinc: ------------------------ 882 ---------------- 889 -------------- 891
Barium: ------------------------ 0 ------------------ 0 ----------------- 0
SUS Viscosity @ 210 F: ----- 71.7 ---------------- 73.3 ------------ 65-76
Flashpoint F: ---------------- 340 ---------------- 445 ----- greater than 375
Fuel %: ---------------------- 1.8 ------------------ 0 --------- less than 2.0
Antifreeze % ---------------- 0.29 ------------------ 0 ----------------- 0
Water % ----------------------- 0 ------------------ 0 --------- less than 0.1
Insolubles % ----------------- 0.3 ------------------ 0 --------- less than 0.6

 

[Shipo]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
Shipo,

I'd say those are excellent results considering the coolant contamination and high level of fuel dilution. This is what I think I'd do:

1) Test the next two batches of oil after 7500 miles to see if this condition is stable and that bearing wear isn't trending up. If it seems okay, visually check the oil frequently to look for signs of sludging. Test the oil occasionally - say every third batch of oil you run.

2) Change to a PG coolant - as **** mentioned in the event of coolant contamination PG coolants are less aggressive towards bearing materials. The study I saw was done by Detroit Diesel...they put 5% straight PG right into the crankcase of a Series 60 engine and ran it at full power for an hour on a dyno with no adverse affects. The same test done with EG coolant resulted in rapid sludging and bearing failure....

TS

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Good advice and thanks for providing some anecdotal support to the advice from **** in Falls Church. I'm thinking that the PG is going to have to happen regardless so I'll stop tomorrow on the way home and pick up a couple of gallons of Sierra antifreeze. This is annoying because I had the cooling system flushed and all new hoses put on just two months ago. Oh well.

As far as checking for any visual signs of sludging, I do in fact have a baseline to use. This last January I happened to take a photo through the oil filler hole of the rocker cover which shows part of the rocker shaft, part of one rocker arm and some oil pooled in the lower end of said rocker arm. This shot was taken with 104,000 miles on the engine and 4,000 miles on the Mobil 1 oil in said engine. If you wish to take a peek, this picture is called "DGC3.8-104K-s" and it's located inside the "Caravan Stuff" folder at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/shipo

 

[Bill in Utah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Triple_Se7en:
[[qb]

Originally posted by Ray H:
[qb]Also.. are you saying there's no sodium UOA mixup-associations with Mobil 1 oils? Is this just with the Mobil 5000 oils?

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Mobil 7500 sure screwed up my used oil analysis up to 2 OCIs AFTER I drained it.

I'll never put in Mobil products in my engines again. Better oils out there for less money and they don't screw up the used oil analysis.

Back on topic,

I'd get the engine fixed. Also, I'd get on 3k ocis until you have a few used oil analysis that are showing no coolant. You can go from good engine to bad engine in a lot less than 7500 miles.

Done the Anti-freeze in oil twice.. Not good.

No oil will help you when the anti-freeze gets bad enough.

Period.

Good luck, Bill

 

[Bernard Feltzer]

Your front aluminum head is probably warped and leaking at head gasket area on driver front side near the corner.
I had same van and same problem driving up steep mountain somewhere near Wyoming. It over heated about 25 ft away from top crest of mountain. I tried to keep going but engine quit. After 1/2 hour sitting, it started and ran fine all the way home to the other side of the country. The van had 120,000 at the top of mountain.
The van also consumed about a gallon of antifreeze per year.
I didn't want to use Bar's because in other vehicles it clogged up heater core, so I used some aluminum powder that came in a plastic tube.
That stopped the leak where ever it was for the next 45,000 miles.
I was not willing to spend big money on replacing heads on an older van at that time.
It never over heated again, and I stay away from steep mountains in the middle of no where.

 

[i]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ignatz:
Barr's leak in the (cheap) powdered tube has been keeping my 92 Escort alive for the last 50,000 miles. If I flush out all the antifreeze untill its clear water (about 3 flushes) my car will start running on 3 cylinders.(cracked head) Fresh antifreeze, distilled water and two tubes of Barr's leak and everythings fine. I've done an oil sampling last year and although Blackstone say's I have a coolant problem, theres no sign of engine wear. I'm doing 3,000 mile oil changes just so I can dump the poison out and look forward to the day when I look in the miror and see a cloud of white smoke....time to get a new ride!..Its been this way for about 4 years and its not getting any worse.

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That's hilarious! I did the same thing for a while with an early-eighties Escort back in the eighties. Those motors had some of the worst heads ever, they cracked when being torqued down! It was one of the many steps down the road to the discovery of Japanese cars.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

quote:

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Originally posted by i:

]That's hilarious! I did the same thing for a while with an early-eighties Escort back in the eighties. Those motors had some of the worst heads ever, they cracked when being torqued down! It was one of the many steps down the road to the discovery of Japanese cars.

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Japanese vehicles suffer cracked heads too. Repair bills for them are generally higher.

 

[i]

I agree there; I remember when early eighties Honda accords cracked heads, but they fixed that problem by 1983 or 1984, unlike Ford, that let the problem go until 1993.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill in Utah:
Mobil 7500 sure screwed up my used oil analysis up to 2 OCIs AFTER I drained it.

I'll never put in Mobil products in my engines again. Better oils out there for less money and they don't screw up the used oil analysis.

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How did it mess up your used oil analysis? The extra sodium Mobil uses?

 

[wiswind]

I do not know the failure history for the Chrysler 3.8L engine. My 3.8L Ford Windstar ('96) is one that is not so prone to head gasket failure (the '95 WAS), but the lower intake manifold gasket did cause a slight leakage of coolant into the oil. I kept it in check with Bar's Stop Leak......with no problems.....for several years. I had the lower intake manifold gaskets replaced....and the coolant usage has gone to zero (knock on wood....stand up .....turn around 3 times.....sit back down) and the stop leak has kept the front cover (aka timing cover) seapage to zero as well.
I was using Mobil 1 oil as well......and think that it did play a factor in protecting my engine. Maybe the high Molly content helped?

All that said......look into the common failures for your vehicle and engine....for your year.....and you may find the solution there. If the issue can be repaired for a reasonable price.......and the rest of the vehicle is in good shape..... I would repair it.

Remember that your vehicle, if it has the 4 speed auto.....the transmission is a weak point.....as it is in my windstar. I had my transmission replaced at about 100K miles....and installed a big auxillary cooler, and change the ATF each year with a full synthetic fluid.

 

[Bill in Utah]

quote:

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Originally posted by Buford T. Justice:

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill in Utah:
Mobil 7500 sure screwed up my used oil analysis up to 2 OCIs AFTER I drained it.

I'll never put in Mobil products in my engines again. Better oils out there for less money and they don't screw up the used oil analysis.

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How did it mess up your used oil analysis? The extra sodium Mobil uses?

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Yep, The sodium showed up and to the lab looked like coolant.

The last UOA on the Truck came back perfect (best one ever) using Chevron and nothing else.

It was even better than the Mobil 1 (tri) UOA I had.

But what can you expect for .49 cents a quart?

Take care, Bill

 

[Shipo]

quote:

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Originally posted by wiswind:
All that said......look into the common failures for your vehicle and engine....for your year.....and you may find the solution there. If the issue can be repaired for a reasonable price.......and the rest of the vehicle is in good shape..... I would repair it.

Remember that your vehicle, if it has the 4 speed auto.....the transmission is a weak point.....as it is in my windstar. I had my transmission replaced at about 100K miles....and installed a big auxillary cooler, and change the ATF each year with a full synthetic fluid.

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I've been checking around and as far as I can tell, there are no real failure points with the 3.3 and 3.8 liter engines. The only failure point per-se that I've even seen were the weak rocker shaft bosses from the early aluminum heads. That having been said, the only failure that I have first hand knowledge of occurred at 360,000 miles (yes MILES not Kilometers), I have pictures, not pretty.

As far as the transmission, I wouldn't really call that a weak point either, unless of course the transmission hasn't been properly serviced and/or was serviced with the incorrect ATF and/or filter.

Regarding fixing the leak, I've been giving a lot of thought to that over the last couple of days (obviously), and a couple of things have occurred to me.
1) At one quart per year, my coolant loss is quite slow and might could well be attributed primarily to evaporation.
2) If there really is a leak into the oil sump (more on that in a moment), then said leak might be yielding only a fraction of my coolant loss into the sump.
3) A factor that I hadn't initially considered is that I had my cooling system flushed (several times according to the mechanic) less than a month before I changed my oil. I'm wondering if they managed to get some coolant into the oil during the process. 4) At the same time as I had the cooling system flushed, the mechanic performed a complimentary "degreasing" of the engine. Could this be a factor? Don't know.
5) Back on track here, I've decided to try and scare up some Amsoil PG coolant, so if there really is a marginal leak, and IF Amsoil's claims of stopping small leaks is more than marketing hype, this new coolant might just do the trick.

With the above in mind, I'm going to try to find the Amsoil coolant before this weekend so I can do the swap then. I now have almost 2,000 miles on the oil that I put in when I took the sample in mid June and my plan is to leave it in there until say 4,500 miles (right bang on 120,000 miles), thus giving the Amsoil coolant a little time to stop any leaks and then change the oil again. Then at 127,500 I'll do another change and have that oil UOAed (thus giving me an apples to apples comparison with this latest UOA). Should be interesting. Assuming that a problem still exists, I'll make the decision as to whether to fix it at that point.