Synthetic label - are you sure?

[Doog]

Are we sure of anything? Tires? Batteries? Brakes? Is Obama's birth certificate real? Did Bill Clinton really inhale? Was there a second shooter on the grassy knoll? Does MMO really do anything?

Only the Shadow knows

 

[Olas]

I agree with the posters who say you should buy an oil that meets spec, regardless of the base oil..

HOWEVER

I cant help feeling that you US guys are bending over for the marketers, in Europe, group 1&2 based oils are 'mineral' because they come out of the ground.
group 3 based oils are 'semi synthetic' because a naturally occuring product has been altered somewhat, and,
only group 4&5 stuff can be called synthetic, simply because.they do not appear in nature but have to be synthesised.

logic has a nice way of letting us label things, lawyers, unfortunately, have a very tenuous and profitable way of allowing us.to mislabel things..

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Olas
I agree with the posters who say you should buy an oil that meets spec, regardless of the base oil..

HOWEVER

I cant help feeling that you US guys are bending over for the marketers, in Europe, group 1&2 based oils are 'mineral' because they come out of the ground.
group 3 based oils are 'semi synthetic' because a naturally occuring product has been altered somewhat, and,
only group 4&5 stuff can be called synthetic, simply because.they do not appear in nature but have to be synthesised.

logic has a nice way of letting us label things, lawyers, unfortunately, have a very tenuous and profitable way of allowing us.to mislabel things..

You are right about group I and II oils, they are sold as mineral oils in EU, but group III are often sold as fully synthetic oil in EU ( UK included). Just go to Mobil 1 UK and you'll see Mobil Super 3000x1 advertised as fully synth, but oil is clearly group III with pour point of -39. Only in Germany an oil sold as fully synth must be real PAO/Ester base.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Olas
I agree with the posters who say you should buy an oil that meets spec, regardless of the base oil..

HOWEVER

I cant help feeling that you US guys are bending over for the marketers, in Europe, group 1&2 based oils are 'mineral' because they come out of the ground.
group 3 based oils are 'semi synthetic' because a naturally occuring product has been altered somewhat, and,
only group 4&5 stuff can be called synthetic, simply because.they do not appear in nature but have to be synthesised.

logic has a nice way of letting us label things, lawyers, unfortunately, have a very tenuous and profitable way of allowing us.to mislabel things..


True but only applicable in Germany, Blighty isn't included. I guess the Germans knew what they were doing when they passed that.
It keeps the buggers honest and they certainly don't like it, they are always trying to wordsmith their way around it.

 

[chrisri]

Let's assume that we have two top quality manufacturers, one making oil with group III and other mainly with IV and V.
With same/similar additive pack second oil would still be better, but both oils would meet stringent requirements that car manufacturers, ACEA and API inpose on. No to mention that manufacturer of PAO/Ester oil would probably use even better additive pack since cost is not an issue when they already using expensive base oil. It's like comparing KIA saloon with BMW 3 series. Yes, they both have four doors, 2 litre engine etc. ,but still there is a difference how they perform.

 

[HKPolice]

If you buy oil from a major oil company like Shell, ExxonMobil or BP (Castrol) then you're probably getting real synthetic Group III or above. Why? Because they produce the synthetic base stocks so their profit margins on oil are the highest.

Shell even had a synthetic over supply and put it in some batches of PYB dino & QSGB dino oil! Proof in the PQIA 5w20 dino NOACK results: http://www.pqiamerica.com/Nov2013/5W20consolidateddec30.html

Brands that don't own an oil refinery will have higher incentives to "cheat" and use a less than 100% synthetic base stock mix because their margins will be lower. The biggest brand that fits this category is Valvoline (ashland), followed probably by Warren.

 

[KrisZ]

Looks like some people can't let go of their beliefs. Synthetic is more of a religion on here than anything else.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Looks like some people can't let go of their beliefs. Dino is more of a religion on here than anything else.


There fixed it for you. LOL That coin has two sides.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: HKPolice
then you're probably getting real synthetic Group III or above.

Except that a lot of hard core synthetic fans don't consider group III to be real synthetic.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Let's assume that we have two top quality manufacturers, one making oil with group III and other mainly with IV and V.
With same/similar additive pack second oil would still be better, but both oils would meet stringent requirements that car manufacturers, ACEA and API inpose on. No to mention that manufacturer of PAO/Ester oil would probably use even better additive pack since cost is not an issue when they already using expensive base oil. It's like comparing KIA saloon with BMW 3 series. Yes, they both have four doors, 2 litre engine etc. ,but still there is a difference how they perform.

Most drivers will notice the difference between a BMW and a KIA. Not all engines will notice the difference between a Group III and a Group IV/V oil meeting the same specs.

Also, it's entirely possible that a particular Group IV/V oil could fail to meet some specs while another Group III oil could meet them.

 

[chrisri]

Fair point, for average driver in average car there is no difference, but for a guy with 500 hp Impreza or Lancer there could be. Euro boutique oils are not just snob thing, they are proven in racing.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Euro boutique oils are not just snob thing, they are proven in racing.

The use of products in racing is a delicate balancing act between actual performance and marketing and sponsorship.

Pretty sure there are many off the shelf oils that do quite well in racing as well. M1 0w-40, for example.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Fair point, for average driver in average car there is no difference, but for a guy with 500 hp Impreza or Lancer there could be. Euro boutique oils are not just snob thing, they are proven in racing.

If there's a difference, that difference WILL show up in testing.

It may or may not correspond with a difference in base oil composition.

 

[chrisri]

[/quote]
The use of products in racing is a delicate balancing act between actual performance and marketing and sponsorship.

Pretty sure there are many off the shelf oils that do quite well in racing as well. M1 0w-40, for example.
[/quote]

M1 is not really a group 3 oil, is it. That sad M1 is probably best off the shelf oil, but the best thing about it is 24.99$ at WM.

Over here is not strong seller.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
M1 is not really a group 3 oil, is it.

It's a mix of group 3 and other groups.

But my comment had nothing to do with groups. I was just pointing out that you don't necessarily need a boutique oil for racing.

 

[kschachn]

How would you know? No one does as far as I know.

The fact that it is $25 at Walmart is not the best thing about it. The fact that it meets all the specifications that it does is the best thing.

And a Group IV is needed for racing? Why?

Originally Posted By: chrisri
M1 is not really a group 3 oil, is it. That sad M1 is probably best off the shelf oil, but the best thing about it is 24.99$ at WM.

Over here is not strong seller.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Looks like some people can't let go of their beliefs. Dino is more of a religion on here than anything else.


There fixed it for you. LOL That coin has two sides.


IDK about that. Most of the unsubstantiated claims like better protection, less wear or stronger film strength are constantly attributed to synthetic oils. I do not see the same pattern with dino claims.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: chrisri
M1 is not really a group 3 oil, is it.

It's a mix of group 3 and other groups.

But my comment had nothing to do with groups. I was just pointing out that you don't necessarily need a boutique oil for racing.


Thing is M1 is boutique oil here and cost almost the same as Motul 300V. Well it did two months ago. Now it's 50% off. You sad boutique oil is not necessary. You're maybe right but we have fairly big semi pro racer community and i know few of them. These guys rebuild their own cars by themself because they are on budget. They all swear on Motul and Fuchs oils.

On my 156 2.0 TS i would get nasty cam variator sound at idle after few laps on track with normal A3 5w40 oil.I cured that with Edge Sport or Selenia Racing 10w60 but car was quite slower with this grade. Today i would go Motul 300V 5w40 for this car. This car does have an oil cooler and heat exchanger.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
They all swear on Motul and Fuchs oils.

We all have our favorites. Many people here swear by Amsoil and Redline, and Royal Purple. But does that automatically prove that these oils are somehow superior?

Use the correct oil for your application, that's all I say.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: chrisri
They all swear on Motul and Fuchs oils.

We all have our favorites. Many people here swear by Amsoil and Redline, and Royal Purple. But does that automatically prove that these oils are somehow superior?

Use the correct oil for your application, that's all I say.


I guess you're right, you can't go wrong with manufacturer specifications.