Switching from 0w-20 to 0w-30 experience
- Thread starter MuzzleFlash40
- Start date
No just a random flat most likely.
Yes and seems like it is bothersome when someone has a mountain of lab data to prove themselves why and how a 20 wt destroys engines and is strictly for CAFE yet there's real life use where people have racked up 300K. Just an example here. You know Bose's philosophy was purposeful to not list product wattages on their powered systems and frequency response of their speakers because they knew the majority of speaker buyers were spec sheet jockeys. There's good stuff to be learned on here for sure but no one should be discredited because something they're doing has been working for them or others.
4wd
$50 site donor 2026
But, but, but … “It flows faster” - hopefully not too fast
Who here claims 20 grade destroys engines?
CAFE is the reason we no longer see a range of recommended viscosities in the owners manual. Rules are in place for reported mpg and what is published for viscosity.
It’s well documented a 20 grade can provide acceptable wear when not sheared or diluted. A 30/40 grade can provide headroom and normally doesn’t shear or dilute below an acceptable 20 grade. Pretty solid advice to me. As with anything it’s vehicle/conditions dependent. Then we have GF7B oils where engines have to be mechanically designed to accept an ultra low viscosity. A higher grade can also be run in these but you would not want to run a GF7B oil in an engine not designed for it.
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After a while the machinations required get a bit silly.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
But that's not an example, it's hyperbole, presented to attempt to shutdown debate on something that is technical and nuanced, which I already addressed in my previous reply to you.
People can learn to validate their own experience without needing everyone else's data to back them. Vehicles can run well and underneath it all have sligtly more wear occuring, but that's hard to prove and is only a possibility. It's this simple: Going up a grade won't hurt wear rates and provides more headroom (as the horse that's been beaten to death on this site anytime this topic comes up but it's only natural as the facts haven't changed!)
Your experience can be perfectly fine as a result for you personally. Kudos to you for doing your best with your vehicles, but that doesn't mean others can't chime in on their perspectives and input. Sharing openly is also a "forum" to receiving feedback. That's just the nature of any website like this, but BITOG will chase the root of the matter. That's what I appreciate about this place.
Once we've cleared that elephant in the room of respecting one another though...and that "any oil can work and be sufficient for getting you down the road" (general or basic truth), then we can begin to dive into the subject matter in a more objective way without our emotions clouding our thinking.
This isn't about criticism or personal attacks at all. It's about weighing all of the evidence we have available. And, hopefully, we can cut out the forms of evidence that aren't of good quality or reliability (aka "bad data")
Lighter weight oils made in bulk are part of the reason we see more oil consumption in the last decade plus of TGDI engines; as one example that many respected members have highlighted. That's not vilifying just those oils or saying the blame rests soley there, but it's understanding how they fit into the larger picture of what's going on with this particular issue.
Then, you have wide range of quality of said oils. We don't even have to focus on the wear rate differences, which thinner oils are closer to the line of "just passing" rather than being in a more optimal place; and that's why BITOG exists: We are chasing optimal and have a passion for this in our personal vehicles. I moved up to a 30 grade well after 300k miles on my little Honda Fit. Did my vehicles wear out faster on 20 grade before 300k? I don't know, but I do know I extended the OCIs too far and likely created partially stuck oil control rings. Combined lesser oils with extended OCIs and I'm not surprised at the result. Still, it doesn't hurt moving up to a 30 grade now as the fuel economy difference is more of a factor in how it is driven.
I can own my mistakes with my vehicle and learn moving forward. No shame in that. I had a wrong understanding of how to read UOAs and also the limits to different oils. So what? People are wrong about things all of the time and I'm not exempt. Thankfully, this engine is very forgiving and I still get the EPA rated MPGs between city and hwy. If I bought this vehicle new today? I'd be running 0w-30 the whole time and Amsoil SS, because my driving habits do support extended OCIs, but I need the correct oil for the job per LSJR (I know I know)
Your experience can be perfectly fine as a result for you personally. Kudos to you for doing your best with your vehicles, but that doesn't mean others can't chime in on their perspectives and input. Sharing openly is also a "forum" to receiving feedback. That's just the nature of any website like this, but BITOG will chase the root of the matter. That's what I appreciate about this place.
Once we've cleared that elephant in the room of respecting one another though...and that "any oil can work and be sufficient for getting you down the road" (general or basic truth), then we can begin to dive into the subject matter in a more objective way without our emotions clouding our thinking.
This isn't about criticism or personal attacks at all. It's about weighing all of the evidence we have available. And, hopefully, we can cut out the forms of evidence that aren't of good quality or reliability (aka "bad data")
Lighter weight oils made in bulk are part of the reason we see more oil consumption in the last decade plus of TGDI engines; as one example that many respected members have highlighted. That's not vilifying just those oils or saying the blame rests soley there, but it's understanding how they fit into the larger picture of what's going on with this particular issue.
Then, you have wide range of quality of said oils. We don't even have to focus on the wear rate differences, which thinner oils are closer to the line of "just passing" rather than being in a more optimal place; and that's why BITOG exists: We are chasing optimal and have a passion for this in our personal vehicles. I moved up to a 30 grade well after 300k miles on my little Honda Fit. Did my vehicles wear out faster on 20 grade before 300k? I don't know, but I do know I extended the OCIs too far and likely created partially stuck oil control rings. Combined lesser oils with extended OCIs and I'm not surprised at the result. Still, it doesn't hurt moving up to a 30 grade now as the fuel economy difference is more of a factor in how it is driven.
I can own my mistakes with my vehicle and learn moving forward. No shame in that. I had a wrong understanding of how to read UOAs and also the limits to different oils. So what? People are wrong about things all of the time and I'm not exempt. Thankfully, this engine is very forgiving and I still get the EPA rated MPGs between city and hwy. If I bought this vehicle new today? I'd be running 0w-30 the whole time and Amsoil SS, because my driving habits do support extended OCIs, but I need the correct oil for the job per LSJR (I know I know)
It's typically pretty obvious when posts should be removed - it's not the discussion of thick vs thin if that's what you think. When things go sideways and things get personal (like going down the route of calling someone out as a "shill" just because they mention a product name they use), then threads can get locked or members locked out of a thread (yes that can be done), given a vacation or worse case banned all together. All of those things happen. And many members here who are site donors have had some of those actions given to them ... I've had a few of those ramifications myself, lol.
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I had one removed yesterday - I had asked AI to do the math on something - I guess even that sort of AI (vs AI from using a calculator) is not allowed.
Agree it's the tires. Same going from Michelin Energy Savers to Michelin Defender 2s on my '17 Camry.
I respect the ESP 0w-30, but it's even higher HTHS isn't necessarily a need for this little Honda Fit with the L15A1. This engine just doesn't seem to produce that much in the way of wear and it's your typical NA port injected I4 Japanese econobox.
So, bumping up from the typical 2.7 HTHS in your average 20 grade up to 3.1 in the SS 0w-30 is "good enough" for me; as my goals are extended OCIs without a care in the world. I'm not pushing the engine enough to want even more headroom. It's my definition of "good enough".ESP would also likely be just fine, but in my case I already have the UOA data I would want/need to support yearly intervals on the Amsoil SS. I like the brand, not going to lie. M1 is probably my alternate choice if I wasn't going boutique though.
Frankly, I'm impressed with the Signature Series oil lineup. I accept that the price point reflects the overall quality of the product. So, I expect to pay a little more. Besides, if we're talking yearly OCIs, the cost difference is negligible at that point.
Now, if I stopped commuting nearly 75% highway miles and did extreme short tripping, I'd want to re-sample and establish how the oil is holding up and if more fuel would be present, etc. and at the end of the day I might continue extending the interval while using SS. ESP I don't have experience with, although it's a fine product.
What I see on the technical side of this site are people giving technical articles and data (much of it based on SAE papers and other controlled testing), like more HTHS viscosity gives more film thickness headroom between parts to protect the engine better from wear, and that higher efficiency oil filters will keep oil cleaner and reduce engine wear - those are two hot topics. People can believe the info and data or not, and decide if they want to use that information, or just do what they think is working for them because their vehicles seem to be doing fine.
Personally, I don't care what people use or do with their stuff, but what always seems to happen is people who don't believe the Tribology can't refute those findings, and they just push back without any proof that less viscosity and dirtier oil isn't causing any more engine wear - and a UOA or two that only looks at 5u or smaller particles isn't scientific enough to claim there's no real wear difference - unless maybe you ran some 0W5 which would probably flip that UOA red flag up (it's been done). Or they don't care about any added engine wear (which is fine) because the car will get traded in, rust out or get T-boned on the road.
Personally, I don't care what people use or do with their stuff, but what always seems to happen is people who don't believe the Tribology can't refute those findings, and they just push back without any proof that less viscosity and dirtier oil isn't causing any more engine wear - and a UOA or two that only looks at 5u or smaller particles isn't scientific enough to claim there's no real wear difference - unless maybe you ran some 0W5 which would probably flip that UOA red flag up (it's been done). Or they don't care about any added engine wear (which is fine) because the car will get traded in, rust out or get T-boned on the road.
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