Super-Tech ST2870A - Non E-Core

[lubeowner]

Ray H,

Cut 1000 filters open then come back with some real world data in the forum. Your opinons and views hold no water with me. BTW I don't know where you come up with this photo shop stuff. I don't own and sure the heck would have no idea how to use something to manipulate photographs, why would I even waste my time doing it. Obviously you are not smart enough to have read my other posts that clearly state that I still buy all my other supplies (air filters, cabin air filters, breathers) from Champ. The only problem I have is with their value line oil filters. The Wix built value line filters we switched to several months back have had no problems run in the exact same conditions. Go figure.

 

[Mr Nice]

Lubeowner,

Have you had any customers complain about Champ Labs oil filters when you used them ??

[ July 20, 2005, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: LT4 Vette ]

 

[labman]

Sorry LT, but I don't think that is a good question. If the problem exists, nobody is going to know until they cut up the filter. They just have more unfiltered oil going through their engine. If the fibers plug up a vital oil passage, then their dealer comes after Lube owner with a stick, well maybe an invoice. I never saw any problems the years I ran Frams.

I am not on either side, just trying to keep things straight and figure out what is happening. Nobody here really seem to be trying to figure out why Lube Owners experience with Champ is so different of many here. Are Warners trash compared to ST and other brands?

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

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Originally posted by LT4 Vette:
Lubeowner,

Have you had any customers complain about Champ Labs oil filters when you used them ??

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LOL. I had my oil changed for 20 years by lube shops who used the cheapest filters, of that I am sure.

Did I have any complaints? No.

Why? Because I had no clue what they were putting on my car.

"Have you had any customers complain about Champ Labs oil filters when you used them ?? "

I'd of thought people on this forum had more brainpower than to ask a silly question like that.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, I would think things like start up rattle and what not would be appropriate complaints from a customer

 

[Filter guy]

quote:

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Originally posted by lubeowner:
Hey FG, I really recommend you read Tom Glenn's article in the upcoming issue of Lubes-N-Greases magazine. You might learn something about the lack of testing and standardization in the filter industry. You can't actually think that the testing done on oil filters is even in the ballpark of what the engine oils must go through to be licensed.

Originally the Warner filters were sold to us under the "they all come off the same line" sales pitch. Then came the clicker valve. I for one never received any documentation that they were totally scrapping the threaded end bypass design, in favor of what I believe is a cost cutting, unreliable design.

I am not going to further this debate. I have completed some tests on my employee vehicles and I will tell you that the Champs that we cut open that were run to the OEM recommended interval of 5k or 7500mi. did not survive. The PH2808 that come off of one of their cars after 7k miles had 5 pleats torn off and flattened against the center tube. Guess where, there the pleats were unevenly spaced. Back to ignore list.

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I'm sure you can show me when you cut open my filter. You ARE going to do that aren't you?

I will tell you that the Champs that we cut open that were run to the OEM recommended interval of 5k or 7500mi. did not survive

Well the part numbers you had pictures of, complained the most about, were of the Warner brand and were from the Ford family of filters..

Ford does NOT claim 5,000 mile oil change intervals nor 7,500 miles.

As with most of your posts you deflect away the issue rather than post facts. Can you link to any of your cut open filters you posted and show us where you posted that the filter did not last 5,000 miles instead of generalizing and using the bait and switch tactic with your posts. You were asked more than once by numerous posters to do exactly that and post the mileages with your pictures.

Just the facts please from your pictures. Not your personal re-interpretation of things.

I will also ask you this,as you're the expert...

I have two quarts of oil. One is Mobil 1, which I use in my current Taurus. I have read every inch of the wording on the filter. Can YOU tell me how long Mobil 1 0W-20 weight oil will last?
3,000 miles?
3,500 miles?
4,000 miles?
5-6-7-8-9-10,000 miles? More?

And if you can't, why can't you?

I also have a quart of Valvoline Durablend 5W-30 semi-sythentic that was for my previous Taurus?

Can YOU tell me the same thing for that brand of oil? How long will it last?

Keeping in mind of course your earlier post about filters when you said "If it only lasts 3K miles then it needs to say so."

So as a consumer, how long can I go on either oil and why do OEM's have statements in their manuals which list certain mileage recommendations to change oil..regardless of brand, blend, or type?

Can you also show me anywhere in any automotive OEM manual where extending drain intervals is approved by the OEM? With or without oil analysis. Ford? GM? Chrysler? VW? Honda? Toyota? Mercedes? Any brand of car you want. Can you show us where an automotive OEM says you can go 1,000..2,000...3,000...5,000 miles, whatever extra length of mileage as an extension to their recommeded oil change. And if not, why don't they?

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Well, I would think things like start up rattle and what not would be appropriate complaints from a customer

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Gary c'mon. I can tell you from experience my wife DOESN'T HEAR the engine. AT ALL. I have no idea what she is thinking about when she drives a car, but I can tell you that the sound of the engine is NOT where her brain is at.

There is a gauge on the panel right in front of her nose that displays the water temperature. I asked her the other day if she knew what the normal reading was. NOT A CLUE.

Do you really believe she would "hear a startup rattle"? I don't think so. Even if she did, would she know that it came from the engine as opposed to some "loose piece of metal under the car somewhere"? I don't think so.

You have been hanging around BITOG too long to be discussing "startup rattle" and lube shop customers in the same breath. Furthermore, while startup rattle has been an isolated complaint by a handful of people, it doesn't seem to be the "normal" symptom of a cheapo filter.

I think FG said it all when he said in response to "cheap filters should be labeled as such" that "they are, it is called price".

The problem with that is that again, the people who frequent a lube shop don't know anything about price. Do you seriously think my mother has EVER bought a filter for her car? In 20 years I never had!!! How would she (or I) know that the filter put on by the shop owner was a cheapo useless piece of junk (which by the way FG implicitly agrees is true)?

I think it is inappropriate for supposedly "educated" people, like members of this forum pride themselves in being, to just accept that cheap junk is OK and it is the fault of the user for buying it.

FG is in their pocket, of course that is his attitude. It certainly isn't mine. There is a difference between stupid and ignorant. I am not stupid, but I was ignorant.

Unfortunately the "millions of unwashed" will never become educated. The Lube Shops won't educate them, and neither will the manufacturers so how can they get educated? They will continue to be sold junk because their only hope, those who are educated, take an elitist attitude that it is their own fault that they buy the junk.

I expect more from you Gary.

You have always shown an exceptional common sense, but that was a seriously silly thing to say.

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

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Can you also show me anywhere in any automotive OEM manual where extending drain intervals is approved by the OEM? With or without oil analysis. Ford? GM? Chrysler? VW? Honda? Toyota? Mercedes? Any brand of car you want. Can you show us where an automotive OEM says you can go 1,000..2,000...3,000...5,000 miles, whatever extra length of mileage as an extension to their recommeded oil change. And if not, why don't they?

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Yes, I can. The dashboard of my Chevy Venture told me it was OK to go 11,000 miles before changing my oil. The owners manual told me to look at the dashboard computer to decide when to change the oil.

Straight from the horses computer so to speak.

FG, I really do get tired of your silliness.

 

[lubeowner]

quote:

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quote:
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Originally posted by wavinwayne:
Super Tech ST2870A oil filters. They were in the old light blue colored Super Tech boxes.

These filters fit my VW 1.8T & they appear to be made by Champion Labs. Are these good filters? They were only $1.98 each.
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Using a Wix cross-reference it would appear that filter has a 16 psi by-pass setting. I would think you'd want something closer to 30 psi for your 1.8T. How old are these filters? When did Super Tech change from light blue to black?


Champ does not seem to understand that VW has a high bypass setting. I know they just released a new filter for 1.8T apps., but it may only affect the Passat and Audi A4. As I said in a few other posts when wy switched to the Wix built filters I found that they actually had the proper bypass settings and had a threaded end bypass valve to boot.

On the leaking E-core. It is common knowledge in the filter industry that the first production runs of E-cores had an incorrectly spec'd gasket. They were too hard and too thin. We have seen lots of them leaking that come into the shop. Many complaints were filed by various shops to Champ because of the leaking gasket problem. I have noticed that many E-cores, used in a longer drain application have a sheen of oil leaking down the side covered with dust and road grime.

Labman, Thanks for the jab, you seem to have taken over for FG.

 

[lubeowner]

Although I am reluctant to reply to an FG post, here goes. FG, you sound just like the manufacturers rep that originally got us started on Champion filters. This was back in the days of threaded end bypass on their filters, lots of evenly spaced media, and no E-cores mind you. Champ always has a long list of all the OEM contracts they have had, all the secondary supply contracts, etc. Well that is all fine and good. The problem is that there is a huge difference in these supplier filters and their installer market filters. For example the FL820s used on the assembly line at Ford, made by Champ. Silicone ADBV, threaded end byapss, gobs of media, evenly spaced. Then you cut open one of their value line filters, you don't find any of this stuff. That is fine too but it is not fair to rattle off their long lists of OEM's etc and say we build great filters. Champ can build a great filter if they want to. They are more than capable of outdoing any other filter manufacturer. They build Mobil 1, K & N, factory Ford etc. These are all well manufactured filters, but comparing these to a Warner or STP is like apples to oranges. So FG keep on with the marketing hype, it is funny. You know as well as I there are no international standardization's required of oil filters. The oil industry must spend millions each year meeting harder and harder specs required by the OEM and Feds. This shoddy oil filter construction will continue to plague the filter industry until there is some sort of required testing procedure put in place. Right now we rely on reverse-engineering, and educated guesses on what the OEM really wants on their vehicles.

Lets not confuse the facts. The cheapo filters need to be labeled as such by all filter manufacturers. If it only lasts 3K miles then it needs to say so. I would hate to see a Champ clicker filter used with the extended drain intervals of the OEM's. Can you honestly say that this filter would hold up to these drain intervals? I hope not, because I can tell you they wont. I just wanted to point out to the unsuspecting consumer that just because a certain manufacturer claims to build all these great filters, and have many contracts the filters are built to the contract specs. If Fleetguard want's a filter built a certain way Champ will build it as such, does that meen it is the same as a Supertech, absolutely not.
Some may be good, others not so good, and the sad part is it is up to the consumer to cut open and examine the filters to ensure they will get a quality filter and we all know how many people are actually going to do this.

 

[TurboJim]

quote:

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Originally posted by John W. Colby:
The dashboard of my Chevy Venture told me it was OK to go 11,000 miles before changing my oil. The owners manual told me to look at the dashboard computer to decide when to change the oil.

Straight from the horses computer so to speak.

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How does that work exactly? What is it measuring? Is it sensitive enough to tell the difference between oil types? Filter types? Has anyone compared the computer read out with UOA?
That is say you changed your oil at 10,000 miles, 1,000 miles short of the computer's sugested interval. Would a UOA confim that you had at 1,000 miles left in the oil?

 

[brianl703]

Regarding evenly-spaced media..I have some Ecotec cartridge filters by Purolator (USA-made), STP (Champ) (Bulgerian-made) and Wix (Korean-made)..not a single one has evenly-spaced filter media.

I'll let you know right on this forum if the pleats in any of them ever rip.

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

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Originally posted by TurboJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by John W. Colby:
The dashboard of my Chevy Venture told me it was OK to go 11,000 miles before changing my oil. The owners manual told me to look at the dashboard computer to decide when to change the oil.

Straight from the horses computer so to speak.

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How does that work exactly? What is it measuring? Is it sensitive enough to tell the difference between oil types? Filter types? Has anyone compared the computer read out with UOA?
That is say you changed your oil at 10,000 miles, 1,000 miles short of the computer's sugested interval. Would a UOA confim that you had at 1,000 miles left in the oil?

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Which is pretty much my point exactly. The computer doesn't know anything about anything except your driving style. The expectation is that if you are using the recommended oil and filter they will last.

Will the cheapo *** $1 filters that "meet manufacturer's specs" last 11k miles?

 

[TurboJim]

quote:

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Originally posted by John W. Colby:
The computer doesn't know anything about anything except your driving style. The expectation is that if you are using the recommended oil and filter they will last.

Will the cheapo *** $1 filters that "meet manufacturer's specs" last 11k miles?

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Thanks for clearing that up. The computer is making an educated guess based on its factory programing. I have no doubt that it will be accurate enough to see the engine through the warranty period.

 

[Gary Allan]

Well, J. W. you make the assumption that the only customer that a quicklube sees is a numb dumb consumer that doesn't have the brains to blow their nose in terms of sensing "unright" even if their brains were made of TNT.

There are the uneducated that merely sense..."Hmm...that's funny ..it never made that noise before." (visions of AirPlane "That's funny. John never asked for a second cup of coffee, at home.").

Well, sorry to disappoint, J.W. You, however, have lived up to my full expections.

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Well, J. W. you make the assumption that the only customer that a quicklube sees is a numb dumb consumer that doesn't have the brains to blow their nose in terms of sensing "unright" even if their brains were made of TNT.

There are the uneducated that merely sense..."Hmm...that's funny ..it never made that noise before." (visions of AirPlane "That's funny. John never asked for a second cup of coffee, at home.").

Well, sorry to disappoint, J.W. You, however, have lived up to my full expections.

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Gary,

I am sure there are people who use lube shops who can hear their engines. I can (but I never heard startup rattle). However it is my firmly held belief that of the entire set of auto owners / drivers, well less than 5% pay any attention to their car. It is nothing more than a toaster that gets them someplace. Do you listen to your toaster?

I am happy that I fully met your expectations. I don't mind shaking things up. I don't need to be liked, I would rather people be irritated with me but think than be all warm and fuzzy with me and sound asleep.

You happen to be one of the posters here that I consistently read looking for intelligent, thoughtful, common sense points of view. I just thought I heard snores coming from your general direction.

 

[John W. Colby]

quote:

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Originally posted by TurboJim:

quote:

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Originally posted by John W. Colby:
The computer doesn't know anything about anything except your driving style. The expectation is that if you are using the recommended oil and filter they will last.

Will the cheapo *** $1 filters that "meet manufacturer's specs" last 11k miles?

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Thanks for clearing that up. The computer is making an educated guess based on its factory programing. I have no doubt that it will be accurate enough to see the engine through the warranty period.

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LOL. I have no doubt it will be accurate enough to last for far longer than that, IF I feed it the right oil and use a filter that actually does something. Which does NOT include the cheapo *** $1 filter from the lube shop.

 

[wavinwayne]

OK guys, this thread has turned into a contest, just the way most "is this a good filter" posts do. Getting back to my original question from my first post in this thread:

Are these aqua/light blue colored ST2870A filters any good, or should I pass on them? It's just hard for me to resist them at $1.98 each.

After a second look, they appear to have a threaded end bypass valve, if that will influence any opinions.

[ July 21, 2005, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[Bio-T]

Wayne,

At the $1.98 cost the ST series will get you to your 3-5K mile oil change. If you desire to go longer on your oil change then step up in quality. Wix, Pure One or Mobil 1. I select the filter based on the oil change interval that I desire to run, and I base the length of time to run the interval on the oil I am using based on UOA's.