Subaru Crosstrek

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by PimTac
I did watch the video. There is no question you hate Subaru and Toyota. Don't try to convince the rest of us that they are bad.

Point of video are tires. it does not help those particular Subaru's at that altitude develop less than 140hp.
Their (any) AWD is useless without proper shoes. But, explaining that to average Subaru driver is harder than brainless fish.

 

[buster]

Tires absolutely make a HUGE difference whether it be for off-road or snow. I don't think anyone would deny that.

 

[PimTac]

Yep. The tires and the driver are the two main reasons are vehicle will either get stuck or it won't.

We had a foot of snow in our region the past few days. The one time I took the CX5 out it performed beautifully. No tire spin, no exciting slides. The AWD system performed as expected as I depend on it to avoid the others who have no business on the roads in those conditions.

AWD has Advanced a long ways. I also agree with the comment above that Subaru's weight distribution is a key factor in their success.

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by PimTac
I did watch the video. There is no question you hate Subaru and Toyota. Don't try to convince the rest of us that they are bad.

Point of video are tires. it does not help those particular Subaru's at that altitude develop less than 140hp.
Their (any) AWD is useless without proper shoes. But, explaining that to average Subaru driver is harder than brainless fish.


While tires are great part of equation I think clearance (Subaru have a ton) and decent AWD are huge factors. Last major storm I was running about in a 2018 VW Tiguan with 4motion and so-so all-seasons. Not once did I get stuck on those piles of snow left at intersections when plow goes by. FWD sedans were spinning away stuck due to lack of clearance coupled to the powering wheels stuck in thick salty mush while the back two wheels sitting on snow covered pavement did nothing. ANY AWD vehicle would kick the power somewhat to rear and push the vehicle thru.

My MIL's Mazda 5 seriously lacking clearance but having X-ice tires got stuck in 9" of snow due to excessive build up. My wife's Tiguan with crappy factory all-seasons clawed its way through and around. On snow packed roads much more preferable then an all-season equipped AWD but in tough situations it falls onto its face.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by madRiver
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by PimTac
I did watch the video. There is no question you hate Subaru and Toyota. Don't try to convince the rest of us that they are bad.

Point of video are tires. it does not help those particular Subaru's at that altitude develop less than 140hp.
Their (any) AWD is useless without proper shoes. But, explaining that to average Subaru driver is harder than brainless fish.


While tires are great part of equation I think clearance (Subaru have a ton) and decent AWD are huge factors. Last major storm I was running about in a 2018 VW Tiguan with 4motion and so-so all-seasons. Not once did I get stuck on those piles of snow left at intersections when plow goes by. FWD sedans were spinning away stuck due to lack of clearance coupled to the powering wheels stuck in thick salty mush while the back two wheels sitting on snow covered pavement did nothing. ANY AWD vehicle would kick the power somewhat to rear and push the vehicle thru.

My MIL's Mazda 5 seriously lacking clearance but having X-ice tires got stuck in 9" of snow due to excessive build up. My wife's Tiguan with crappy factory all-seasons clawed its way through and around. On snow packed roads much more preferable then an all-season equipped AWD but in tough situations it falls onto its face.

Clearance does help in situations like that, but 99% of people will stay on the road and on the road, even if you have excessive build up, it will not be frozen. Shear weight and momentum will take care of that. On my Tiguan I have narrowest possible size for winter and right now Nokian R2's. Never had slight issue going over passes during blizzards etc. Tried to stuck it in parking lot in A-Basin ski resort while I had Blizzak WS70 on it, nope, crawls itself out of foot+ snow pretty confidently, although not as my previous car BMW X5 35d. Though Tiguan is better when I go through snow with some speed due to narrow tires.
But, those Subarus do have more advantage bcs of much, much softer suspension in off road conditions (which again on the road works against them).
That video is just proof that ANY AWD is good as tires are.

 

[nthach]

Originally Posted by edyvw

That video is just proof that ANY AWD is good as tires are.

Not really. The Subaru and Audi systems will be better with winter/ice tires, I still wouldn't trust a FWD-biased system like Honda RT4WD/VTM-4, Toyota or non-Haldex VW/Volvo/Saab and certainly not a BMW X-Series on the snow.

And I'd certainly trust a Subaru more than a Range Rover, but that's me.

http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/off-roading-with-japanese-nostalgic-trucks/

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by nthach
Originally Posted by edyvw

That video is just proof that ANY AWD is good as tires are.

Not really. The Subaru and Audi systems will be better with winter/ice tires, I still wouldn't trust a FWD-biased system like Honda RT4WD/VTM-4, Toyota or non-Haldex VW/Volvo/Saab and certainly not a BMW X-Series on the snow.

And I'd certainly trust a Subaru more than a Range Rover, but that's me.

http://japanesenostalgiccar.com/off-roading-with-japanese-nostalgic-trucks/

I had BMW X5, and it was pretty formidable with snows here in the Rockies, including similar roads, and I trusted it. It is rear wheel biased, but these post 2007 xDrives are very good. Still, one can make donut any time in slick conditions, if wanted. Is it good as Torsen in Audi? No. Is it good as Subaru AWD? No. But then, rest of the car is much better, so it makes it up.
As for Toyota AWD. I have it with X-Ice on it, and while system is definitely awful compared to others, with snows will do OK.
I yet to see any AWD with snows stuck here in CO on back roads, regardless whether that is Subaru or Toyota RAV4 or whatever. I did saw Land Cruisers stuck in the middle of Hoosier pass, due ti tires and guy burning transfer case on Sienna due to, well tires.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted by madRiver
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by PimTac
I did watch the video. There is no question you hate Subaru and Toyota. Don't try to convince the rest of us that they are bad.

Point of video are tires. it does not help those particular Subaru's at that altitude develop less than 140hp.
Their (any) AWD is useless without proper shoes. But, explaining that to average Subaru driver is harder than brainless fish.


While tires are great part of equation I think clearance (Subaru have a ton) and decent AWD are huge factors. Last major storm I was running about in a 2018 VW Tiguan with 4motion and so-so all-seasons. Not once did I get stuck on those piles of snow left at intersections when plow goes by. FWD sedans were spinning away stuck due to lack of clearance coupled to the powering wheels stuck in thick salty mush while the back two wheels sitting on snow covered pavement did nothing. ANY AWD vehicle would kick the power somewhat to rear and push the vehicle thru.

My MIL's Mazda 5 seriously lacking clearance but having X-ice tires got stuck in 9" of snow due to excessive build up. My wife's Tiguan with crappy factory all-seasons clawed its way through and around. On snow packed roads much more preferable then an all-season equipped AWD but in tough situations it falls onto its face.



No way. That can't happen. Cue the snow tire cult in 3, 2, 1.......

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by fdcg27
edy, you are a really funny guy even though that isn't what you intend.
I would love to wave bye-bye to you while accelerating away from you uphill in real snow in one of our Foresters as I'm quite confident I could do.
Would be even funnier were my wife driving while waving back at you in your stuck whatever.
I get that you're not a fan of Subarus, but you appear ignorant of their actual capabilities.


Those Foresters are so dynamic I would leave them on foot in snow using tennis shoes. Did you actually watched video? Not my fault you bought marketing.
It is not Subaru, it is just that I do not like refrigerators, microwaves, ovens, dish washers etc. on the road.


Don't know what to tell ya edy.
We've owned Subarus in an areas that sees really heavy snow now and then for the past decade or so and even my wife feels confident in driving them on back road shortcuts on her way to work after a wet, heavy snow.
Driving is believing, but I guess you'd have to abandon your own silly prejudices first.
In treacherous conditions, I'd vote Subaru, but that's based upon 150K or so with them.
If I'd never actually owned one, I might share your uninformed views.

 

[Al]

Delete

 

[Al]

Originally Posted by fdcg27
Subaru, but that's based upon 150K or so with them.
If I'd never actually owned one, I might share your uninformed views.

Got ya beat..95K miles on a '78, 192K miles on an 08 Forester (granddaughter is driving it), 8K on my wife's '18 Forester XT. Will have a Crosstrek this year.

2 of her friends are now looking at buying one!!!

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted by Al
Originally Posted by fdcg27
Subaru, but that's based upon 150K or so with them.
If I'd never actually owned one, I might share your uninformed views.

Got ya beat..95K miles on a '78, 192K miles on an 08 Forester (granddaughter is driving it), 8K on my wife's '18 Forester XT. Will have a Crosstrek this year.

2 of her friends are now looking at buying one!!!


Thanks Al, but my point for edy was that we've actually driven Subarus for a lot of miles and have found them quite good.

 

[bobdoo]

Originally Posted by buster

...
It's always a 60/40 (CVT) or 50/50 split (VC in the manual).


This is not true. The CVT goes from 90/10 (f/r) to potentially 50/50. It's mostly at 90/10. Subaru has NEVER published any specs on this, this was reported second-hand on NASIOC.

The viscous coupler is only 'locked up' (it still slips, which is why it can be heat-damaged) when there is *enough* difference in rotation speeds between front and rear axles. I no longer remember specifics, as I sold that car in 2012.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted by bobdoo
Originally Posted by buster

...
It's always a 60/40 (CVT) or 50/50 split (VC in the manual).


This is not true. The CVT goes from 90/10 (f/r) to potentially 50/50. It's mostly at 90/10. Subaru has NEVER published any specs on this, this was reported second-hand on NASIOC.

The viscous coupler is only 'locked up' (it still slips, which is why it can be heat-damaged) when there is *enough* difference in rotation speeds between front and rear axles. I no longer remember specifics, as I sold that car in 2012.



No, that is not true. It's 60/40 for CVT and 50/50 for viscous coupling manual confirmed by Engineering Explained via Subaru.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted by fdcg27

Thanks Al, but my point for edy was that we've actually driven Subarus for a lot of miles and have found them quite good.

lol..I know.

 

[bobdoo]

Thanks for the cite. I do have reservations.

subaru.ca says "This system is used for all models equipped with manual transmissions, excluding the WRX STI. It delivers the sporty satisfaction of quick shifts combined with an AWD system that makes the most of the available traction at all times. This system also features an efficient layout with a viscous-coupling limited slip centre differential that maintains a 50/50 front/rear torque split for optimum torque distribution, near neutral handling and surefooted performance."

All of you who know how VC works *KNOW* that it does not lock up until there's a significant difference in speeds between the driving disks and the driven disks. Yes, it CAN 'lock up' (it still slips some) so it potentially puts ~50% power to the rear wheels. But in normal driving, it is NOT LOCKED UP. subaru.ca is a *marketing* website, not a technical one.

subaru.ca says "This system employs a multi-plate transfer clutch that maintains a 60/40 front/rear torque split and uses a range of sensors to automatically adjust this split on-the-fly as conditions warrant, creating more predictable handling. The system that's linked to all Subaru models (excluding WRX) equipped with the Lineartronic® Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), the Active Torque Split AWD places the focus on ease of operation, fuel efficiency and reliability."

This is what my Imp and wife's outback have. As I stated, everyone said back in 2012+ that this was 90/10 when cruising. Given subaru's maniacal drive for MPG, they *SHOULD* be running 90/10 if they want to maximize MPG. Those are engineering facts, and if you google "Dave Coleman awd subaru" site+youtube.com, he can explain it to you. NOTE: Dave Coleman is an actual engineer, not a marketing geek.

I'm also wondering why the 60/40 isn't 50/50. That means that that clutch is always slipping, and under high load, it's dissipating tens of horsepower. A 1500w electric heater is less than 1 HP.

Just some things to think about. And as I stated before, out of the SIX AWD vehicles I owned (none less than 5 years, 75,000 miles) the subies seemed most stable in deep heavy slushy snow. But they were not enthusiast vehicles.

 

[Al]

bobdoo. I tend to agree with you. I do not think it is "certain" that the split is 40/60. Non of the sources are (to me) reliable. Dude above with a whiteboard doesn't "prove" much.(to me)

 

[buster]

Where did the 90/10 figure come from and how do we know that is true? Just curious.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by buster
Where did the 90/10 figure come from and how do we know that is true? Just curious.

While Subaru is/was more conservative in moving AWD vehicles to this 90/10 or 100% FWD, it should not be surprising. MPG is driving this, nothing else. The question is whether Subaru can replicate key advantages to 60/40 split in normal conditions using bunch of sensors? Audi thinks that they could with this new quattro ultra which is 100% FWD, but Audi fans think that that is not the case. The question is not what die hard Subaru fan think, because die hard Subaru fan will notice or go great lengths to figure whether that is the case or not. Question is whether someone who think 175hp is a lot, and that hanging out in left lane driving 55mph will notice that their Subaru is now 90/10 and not 60/40? And no, they will not notice because
a. they have no clue how torque is distributed, and what it was before, and how it works. They only want want not to get stuck. Period!
b. 90/10 split will not get them stuck.
Now, people who are WRX fans would notice that, so Subaru is not doing it bcs, they will notice that weird rotation in curves when 90/10 goes to 50/50. Audi is also not using their Ultra in cars such as S models or other vehicles where heavy emphasis on FWD would not be possible.
Subaru got rid of LSD in Outback some time ago, and no one cared, except die hard fans.

 

[buster]

Well regardless where is the 90/10 number coming from? What source? You can't say the 60/40 isn't true if you can't prove the 90/10 is.

"Active torque split AWD
An AWD system developed exclusively for 4-speed automatic transmission, E-4AT (with manual mode) and Lineartronic models to maximise the reliable driving performance of AWD models under any driving conditions. The Lineartronic CVT (Continuous Variable Transmission) uses a chain instead of a belt—allowing a greater span of overall ratios for improved performance and efficiency as well as a faster response to throttle input. The active torque-split AWD system usually distributes torque 60:40 front and rear, however sensors constantly monitor the vehicle's condition in areas such as changes in grip of the front and rear tyres or vehicle speed. The electronically controlled MP-T (Multi Plate Transfer) adjusts torque distribution to the front and rear tyres in real-time to suit driving conditions, as well as the transmission and driver inputs. This further increases the stability of the AWD system to deliver a safe and agile driving experience."