Stupid Airport mm-wave Scanners

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Yeah, Big Mike, I was not going to bring my situation up again...you're right, I don't see the point of screening me...

Ignoring for a moment that I have spent over 17 years on Active Duty and hold a TS clearance...I fly the plane...so, I am screened to preclude my carrying any articles that would allow me to gain control of an aircraft. Then, right after that screening, I am allowed to have control of an aircraft...so...whether I have a flamethrower...or 6 oz. of shaving cream, I will get control of an airplane.

OBTW, I am a supporter of the trusted traveler program. Background check folks...at their request by the way...and once they're cleared, minimize the security screening for them...


Seems logical to me (well, as logical as any of this TSA nonsense.)

There's at least one other person on the flight deck with you, right? If the scenario that is feared is using the aircraft as a missile, the co-pilot would have ample opportunity to take some action against a rogue pilot as he changes course. If the rogue pilot has smuggled a weapon on board, he would be much harder to stop.

TS clearance is good and all, but folks like Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen and John Walker are proof that security clearance is quite fallible.

 

[Al]

So you folks that don't want x-rays, body scans, or hands on searches...What is your solution? The honor system?

Let put the monkey on the back of all the whiners here.

 

[Cujet]

My solution is complete freedom for American citizens. Remember that no crime has been committed if a person takes no action against another. Put another way, someone carrying a firearm (a constitutionally guaranteed right) is not a criminal. Pre-Crime is not a reality, as you cannot know what is in the mind of a person.

With that in mind, yes, carrying 5 gallon Jerry Jugs of gasoline as airline "carry on" is probably not smart, and certainly has the potential to put others at grave risk. Is that simply "stupid" or is it a criminal act? These things need to be worked out.

However, once a crime has been committed, properly harsh punishment is how a "civil" society operates. It really is that simple.



Many years ago, we addressed aviation safety issues with objective data. Money, effort, research and engineering were best applied preventing the most probable situations.

Today, we have lost sight of proper methodology.

 

[buickman50401]

Originally Posted By: Al
So you folks that don't want x-rays, body scans, or hands on searches...What is your solution? The honor system?

Let put the monkey on the back of all the whiners here.

Sure, why not because as it stands, to drag out the tired cliche "the terrorists have already won".

They succeeded in duping us to allow the gov't to create an entire new (and expensive) "security" branch with dubious aims as asinine policies that slowly chips away at our Constitutional rights.

The reason the 9/11 attacks succeeded in the first place was because for decades people were told "comply, just keep your head down, don't worry, just be cooperative, everything will be okay". That is the only reason that a handful of guys armed with nothing but box cutters got away with taking control of 4 commercial aircraft and maintaining control of two of them for long enough to smash them into the WTC.

Look at the results of the one flight that didn't reach its target. Passengers became aware of the results of the other hijackings and fought back. Yes they all lost their lives, but that was a forgone conclusion the minute the hijacking started. What they did by fighting back was to prevent a 4th target from being destroyed.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Al
So you folks that don't want x-rays, body scans, or hands on searches...What is your solution? The honor system?

Let put the monkey on the back of all the whiners here.


No, reread all that Ive said. I dont want dual irradiation of my body with a semi-known source. Particularly so when it is very selective what lines have it, and so it is easily bypassed.

If everyone got the pat down, no worries.

If the mm wave or patdown was used after questionable items being found on your person or carry-on luggage, Im OK with that.

If people who appear to be connected with someone on a no-fly list, send them through with rigor.

But to randomly treat people like criminals with no good basis for it, in an easily avoidable process, through a process which actively irradiates them with a frequency of energy that is not well understood on bond resonance effects, that to me is a problem. We know who our enemies are, we know who intends to do us harm, and so everything else is done to spare them from being offended. Sure, we can cite examples from other ethnicities and backgrounds all day long, but the reality is that the beef is from one specific group, and chances are the others who would intend to do us harm would be able to do so scanner or not. Not saying not to scan everyone, not saying not to screen. Im saying that to mm wave everyone without reason, treating them like criminals andbeing rude to people is unacceptable.

As I said before - passive mm wave? Im OK with that augmenting the metal detectors.

But you have to admit that all this selective screening is kind of silly.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Pre-Crime is not a reality, as you cannot know what is in the mind of a person.


However, once a crime has been committed, properly harsh punishment is how a "civil" society operates. It really is that simple.


Today, we have lost sight of proper methodology.




The problem there though is that the folks truly of interest are not members of a civil society where punishment is an issue.

These people see themselves as martyrs, with death as the ultimate prize. They may be scared, may be antsy, may not be sure at the end, but this is the basis of which they have been tought.

Being afraid of going to jail, loosing a job, getting a house foreclosed, etc., the ramifications of penalties on a civil situation do not matter to those who REALLY care to do us harm.

But mm wave in selective implementations is going to save the day against that and we will not have to worry anymore, right?

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2


However, once a crime has been committed, properly harsh punishment is how a "civil" society operates. It really is that simple.

Great idea..punish the guy that brought down a plane after all the passengers are dead.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: JHZR2


However, once a crime has been committed, properly harsh punishment is how a "civil" society operates. It really is that simple.

Great idea..punish the guy that brought down a plane after all the passengers are dead.


Freedom for ALL Americans. All others are "suspects" and are not afforded Constitutionally guaranteed freedoms.

And, I am sorry you believe we all should pay a price for someone else's occasional foolishness. Let me live in freedom and liberty. The freedom to travel, when I want, where I want, however I want, transporting what I want. The statistical risk is well below other objective risk criteria.

I accept the risk. In fact, my fellow passengers and I will make every attempt to contain that risk. Sorry, but I'm not simply "along for the ride".

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Cujet

And, I am sorry you believe we all should pay a price for someone else's occasional foolishness. Let me live in freedom and liberty. The freedom to travel, when I want, where I want, however I want, transporting what I want. The statistical risk is well below other objective risk criteria.

I should also have the freedom to travel in an a plane free of bombs and guns. You have the freedom to travel in another mode to preserve my freedom.

Quote:
I accept the risk.

Thats mighty big of you to accept risk for both you and the other 90% of the "other" passengers might not be inclined to take an un-necessary risk.

 

[Shannow]

Wasn't it JHZR2 some time ago suggested that a fair way of traversing your nation would be to disrobe, and wear hospital gowns, no carry on ?

Buy a toothbrush, razor and shaving foam when you get there ?

It was a pretty extreme argument IMO in favour of equality.

I don't see his arguments regarding screening incongruent with that.

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: Al
So you folks that don't want x-rays, body scans, or hands on searches...What is your solution? The honor system?

Let put the monkey on the back of all the whiners here.


First, please state the problem.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: bigmike

First, please state the problem.

What is your solution to preventing someone taking a bomb or a plastic gun on board a plane?

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: bigmike

First, please state the problem.

What is your solution to preventing someone taking a bomb or a plastic gun on board a plane?


Equally important, what is your solution from keeping someone from shooting you on the street, or firebombing your house, or deliberately running you over or smashing head on into your car, or blowing themselves up while you eat at McDonald's, or, or, or...

The list is clearly endless. The risk of some of those are significantly higher than an airline disaster. Civil people behave in a civil manner. That's what works. Provide an atmosphere of freedom and opportunity. Not restrictions and conditions.

 

[bigmike]

Cujet is right. People use alot of "ifs," in which I respond gleefully "What if a big, fat cow fell on your head?"

 

[OtisBlkR1]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: bigmike

First, please state the problem.

What is your solution to preventing someone taking a bomb or a plastic gun on board a plane?


Equally important, what is your solution from keeping someone from shooting you on the street, or firebombing your house, or deliberately running you over or smashing head on into your car, or blowing themselves up while you eat at McDonald's, or, or, or...

The list is clearly endless. The risk of some of those are significantly higher than an airline disaster. Civil people behave in a civil manner. That's what works. Provide an atmosphere of freedom and opportunity. Not restrictions and conditions.





I admire your passion, if only in todays society it were that simple...

 

[JHZR2]

I get it that there are people whom desire to do harm. I really get that and the fact that an airplane is a great target because it is a group of people that are quite helpless and constrained.

But again, where is the reasonable suspision/probable cause? Just because someone desires to fly?

And again, if scanning is the right solution, then why are the scanners implemented like swiss cheese?

Going through the int'l terminal at Philadelphia a few days back, I was amazed at how many people were allowed to stand right in front of the scanners and watch others go through. They were all primarily "international" folks, as I could determine by their accents and color of their passports. But if folks can stand there and observe and wave to their friends, they can also observe which lines do NOT have mm wave and then work through the non-scanned lines.

So again, it is selective, and then when you desire to opt out because it isnt all encompassing, then they put you through a highly inconveneint, rigorous evaluation. Why? Had I gotten into one line over, Id had just gone through the MD anyway, and would have been in the terminal by now.

So its selective. If youre going to be selective, then let me opt out of the irradiation, or better less, save it as a tool for use when there is suspicion. Why not do it that way? Because someone might be offended? Give me a break.

 

[bigmike]

My question is why do good people do nothing in times of crisis?

I hope I never have to be put in a situation that looks dire, but I have resigned myself that I will not just sit idle. Maybe that should be encouraged with civil people.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: bigmike
My question is why do good people do nothing in times of crisis?

And the crisis is what again?? You go into a scanning line to be scanned and then are scanned??

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: bigmike
My question is why do good people do nothing in times of crisis?

And the crisis is what again?? You go into a scanning line to be scanned and then are scanned??


How did you logically progress from this below statement to this current one above?

"What is your solution to preventing someone taking a bomb or a plastic gun on board a plane?"

Am I expected to keep you on task here?

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
...
If youre going to be selective, then let me opt out of the irradiation...


You can always opt out of the mm or backscatter scanners for the face-to-face groping. The last time (thankfully) I flew through BWI the only security line open was the millimeter wave scan. All you have to do is request the alternate scan and they must perform it for you - there is no legal obligation to go through it.

I would rather be able to look the person in the eye who has to give me a government-mandated groping than have some anonymous person in a remote location get to look through my skivvies and quite probably save them, as the US Marshalls did in 2010... Gizmodo obtained many of the 35,000 images illegally saved by the US Marshalls with a legal FIOA and posted 100 of them, sans identifying features. Backscatter & millimeter wave scanners also cannot easily see through turbans, burqas, casts, prostheses or even loose clothing. Undercover TSA agents have routinely been able to go through full body scanners with concealed weapons without detection.

But I have almost completely stopped flying except for business trips. Poor airline service and dehumanizing, awkward and IMO illegal security theater has eliminated any remaining desire to fly.