Stihl 2 stroke HP Ultra full synth

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Here is also an email I received from Omni in Shreveport, LA.

From: "April Palombo"
Date: May 18, 2009 2:19:27 PM CDT
To: "Johnny "
Subject: RE: OSP Website Contact

Yes, we do make Stihl 2 –Cycle.

No, we are not in the old Pennzoil plant. We are in the old Loggy Bayou Plant.



From: Johnny [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 10:47 AM
To: April Palombo
Subject: OSP Website Contact

Name
Johnny
Company

Email
[email protected]
Street
202 .
City/State
Wausau WI
Zip
54403
Message
I have two questions if you don't mind.

Do you blend and package Stihl 2-cycle oils?

Is your location in Shreveport the old Pennzoil packaging plant?

Thank you
 
Interesting, thanks Johnny.
The MSDS I have is dated Nov/2005 and I sourced it from the Stihl US website a couple of months back. I'll see if I can find it again, or email you the one I have here.

Both MSDS's are identical in their (limited) information, right down to colour, viscosity, density and VI.

Castrol definitely supply Stihl here and in Europe, could they be outsourcing packaging due to smaller runs or packaging capacity limitations of their own ?
 
It is interesting. Maybe Omni is blending the oil per Castrol/BP specs.
21.gif

But they are blending and packaging the product in Shreveport, LA

http://www.osp.cc/photos_slideshow.php?action=slideshow&start=7&gallery_id=1
 
Originally Posted By: tdi-rick
Originally Posted By: hate2work




Not true, the ratio is determined by the oil, and there is only one optimum ratio for every oil.



Really ?
I hope you have some references or valid dyno/run tests to back this up ?


You mean I need a dyno run to figure this out? Oh my gosh, I better go right now and send a memo to all the customers I've told this to for the past 31 years, they need to know that what I told them wasn't valid without a test to prove it!!

Your post made me chuckle a bit, that's for sure. I have been asked about ratios for many, many years now, and the answer is always the same, exactly what I posted.

The confusion about this comes from three sources.

First, when 2 cycle engines were invented they had to use regular oil for lubrication, and who knows what ratio that was. I've heard the amount per gallon was anywhere from 6 ozs to 16 ozs!! In fact, some of the old gas caps had a built-in cup used for measuring the oil.

Secondly, many of the first 2 cycle oils WERE designed to be mixed at diff ratios, BUT THEY CAME IN DIFF BOTTLES. In other words, for example Homelite had a bottle labeled 16:1, a bottle labeled 32:1 and a bottle labeled 40:1. Isn't that crazy? No wonder people got confused!!

Third, and perhaps the biggest reason people still get confused, is that there are STILL some oils on the market that have a "ratio chart" on the back of the bottle, suggesting that you're supposed to mix it to the correct ratio for your engine. Of course, as previously discussed, there is no "correct ratio" for any engine, the ratio is determined by the oil.

BTW, you'll hear the same thing from anyone in the industry that has any knowledge of the matter.

I should mention that you could take an oil that was designed to be run at 50:1 and run it at a different ratio and it would still work( for a while anyway), IT JUST WON'T BE OPTIMAL.
 
That's great you've been doling out that info for 31 years yet IMO it's info that isn't entirely correct !

Mix ratio, IMO is determined by maximum revs and specific engine output, then oil type.

If you run a stock saw and the manufacturer recommends 40 or 50:1, It'll be fine, saws and all OPE have low specific power outputs and relatively low revs, (I consider 13,500RPM's low revs after running race karts over twenty years ago) but if I used Stihl Ultra HP at 50:1 in a 100cc kart engine pulling over 20,000RPM and making well over 25HP I can say ta ta to it in about one lap or so.
Increase the mix ratio to 18-16:1 and that kart engine may last an entire race. Maybe.

All the manufacturers of high performance two stroke oils still recommend a range of mix ratios, with the proviso to refer to your engine builder/manufacturer.

FWIW, here's the recommendation of Motul for their 800 2T road race oil, as used by quite a few 250 and 125cc GP teams.
Quote:
RECOMMENDATIONS
Mixing ratio : ROAD RACING GRAND PRIX from 3% to 4% (from 33:1 to 25:1)
In normal conditions decrease the percentage by 0.5%.
Adjust according to your own use.

and their 800 2T off road oil
Quote:
RECOMMENDATIONS
Mixing ratio : MOTO CROSS GRAND PRIX : 2% (50:1). In normal conditions decrease the percentage
by 0.5%.
Tune according to your own use.

Silkolene's Pro 2 SX
Quote:
Application
PRO 2 SX has been used successfully at 40:1 (2.5%)
mixture ratio although users should refer to engine
manufacturers’ instructions and mix thoroughly before
use.

Castrol R2 racing Superbike
Quote:
Castrol R2 Racingbike is suitable for all 2-stroke Japanese and European motorcycle engines, including all off-road
models. It is designed for both oil injection and pre-mix lubrication, as per manufacturers' instructions, up to a fuel/oil
ratio of 50:1.

And this from one of the most successful kart engine builders in my country
Quote:
1 litre SHELL Advance X synthetic $30
( our recommended for the Rotax Max at 40:1 to 45:1 ratio
Leopard at 20:1 and all 100cc Yamahas at 25:1 )


(my bold)

I know for a fact that when the national KTM MX team were using Motul 800 @T Off Road they mixed it at 40:1 as that is the ratio their engine builder found made the best power with the best reliability, not Motul's recommended 50:1.

cheers.
 
Does a blender create an oil to be used at a ratio range? It seems to me a 2-stroke oil could be more concentrated or less concentrated to give the same amount of "oil" according to the ratio range its blended to.
 
Hey guys you are both right.
I think hate2work is referring to hand held outdoor equipment,and I would back him up that Stihl HP 50-1 2stoke oil is good for use in any of these units,ie Chainsaws,Trimmers,Blowers etc,regardless of the brand.
The exception in our industry is 2stoke mowers and especially the Australian Victa brand which must use a 25-1 ratio.The quality of oil is not important the ratio is.This engine is a large displacement low revving half crank design with a low output.
tdi-rick should know them well.
So in my opinion you are both right.Horses for courses as we say.
Here in NZ we do not have the HP Ultra,we are told because it would be too expensive.However after dismantling a number of 4MIX engines I think it would be a good idea.The amount of deposit is more than a similar 2stroke,but would the customers use it if available?
 
JimmyChainsaw, I like your handle :)

Yes, those 4Mix engines would definitely benefit if you could get some Ultra oil to run through them. It cleans deposits so well that when I switch someone over to it, I will most often sell them a spare spark plug simply because the Ultra oil is so good at loosening deposits that it fouls the plug with them, making the unit stop running. Most of the loosened deposits go out the exhaust, of course, but some of it manages to goof up the plug.

I've been using the Amsoil Power Foam to clean deposits from the tops of pistons, it works very fast and very good. Good stuff :)

I'll admit that there are exceptions to every rule, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the 2-cycle equipment I see on a daily basis. If you want to have optimal performance and long-lived equipment, you better mix it according to what the oil dictates.

For instance, some of the chainsaw racers will run a leaner mixture for more power, but they don't care about longevity, they just want to win the race. They just want that trophy, and I say more power to them ( no pun intended ) if that's what they choose to do. And they accept the fact that running a leaner mix will result in an early cyl/piston failure.
 
Originally Posted By: tom slick
Does a blender create an oil to be used at a ratio range? It seems to me a 2-stroke oil could be more concentrated or less concentrated to give the same amount of "oil" according to the ratio range its blended to.


If 'concentrated' can be transposed to 'viscosity' then yes, two stroke brews come in a range, from around 7cSt @ 100*c up to over 20cSt @100*C.

A lot of JASO FC/FD oils are at the very lower end of the viscosity scale as they are also designed to be used in injector type engines. eg. scooters which require a low vsicosity lube for accurate injection.
From my reading the JASO FC/FD oils also appear to have much lower flash points than the more 'race specific', or even Stihl Ultra, I'm assuming (yes, a dangerous thing) to lower visible smoke emissions.

FWIW, Amsoil Sabre ATP has a viscosity of 13.5cSt @ 100*C
Motul 800 2T Off Road is 15.5cSt @ 100*C
Stihl Ultra HP is 8.45cSt @ 100*C

Amsoil is recommended to be mixed at 100:1
Motul says their oil can be mixed at 50:1
Stihl Ultra HP is recommended to be mixed @ 50:1

Do people mix Sabre at 100:1 and it works ?
Sure
Would I do it ?
No. I'd be using 50:1 at the leanest mix ratio, which goes against hate2work's recommendations, but I'll live with that.
wink.gif
 
Is viscosity what gives the protection? even at 20:1 the mix's viscosity is next to nothing.

I don't know what the property/ingredient(s) is that protects but it seems like it could be varied according to a target gas/oil ratio and an equal amount of ingredient be in a targeted 100:1 mix or 50:1 mix.
 
Originally Posted By: hate2work

Yes, not only for 31 years, but for 31 years with complete success!!

(my bold)

Obviously you're upset about that, I hope you get over it
LOL.gif


Cheers~


No, not upset so nothing to get over.
wink.gif


I just don't agree with your statement, although I do agree there is an optimal range of mix ratios for every oil, depending on the application.
EG, Castrol's excellent Power 1 Racing TTS is a touch thinner (7.7cSt) and a much lower flash than Stihl Ultra, (76*C vs 220*C) and even though both are Castrol products (mostly, refer above) I wouldn't be comfortable using it at 50:1 in a pro saw, I'd run it (and have) at 40:1. Castrol says "up to a fuel/oil ratio of 50:1." I choose not to go that far for the reasons I outlined.

There is data, albeit very old now, where mix ratios have been tested for power/torque (back when 20:1 was the norm in motor cycles) and it has shown that richer oil/fuel mixes resulted in better power/torque, all the way up to 15:1. I have an old scanned Jennings article here if anyone is interested. He tested from 30:1 (engine damage) up to 15:1 (most power)
One reason given is better ring seal.
Realistically these were much higher specific output engines than OPE ones, and lubrication has improved in quantum leaps over the last twenty/thirty years, so you can't really draw too much from that IMO, but it is still very interesting.

I'd love to see some modern testing to see if it is still true, or it backs up your theory.
 
Originally Posted By: tom slick
Is viscosity what gives the protection? even at 20:1 the mix's viscosity is next to nothing.


I doubt it, but I've been told that there is a certain % of solvents used in the thinner brews to ensure thorough mixing with the fuel.

All I know is that the race specific blends, which are the ones generally recommended to be used at richer oil/fuel mixes also tend to be the more viscous oils

I've read that the progression of the oil through the crankcase is a lot slower than the fuel too, obviously the piston skirt is a different scenario, and so you end up with a reasonable film of oil on the bearings.
Viscosity may have a bearing here.

Quote:
I don't know what the property/ingredient(s) is that protects but it seems like it could be varied according to a target gas/oil ratio and an equal amount of ingredient be in a targeted 100:1 mix or 50:1 mix.



It's oil and EP/AW additives, just ones that need to mix easily with fuel and leave little to no residue when burnt.
 
Originally Posted By: JimmyChainsaw


However after dismantling a number of 4MIX engines I think it would be a good idea.The amount of deposit is more than a similar 2stroke,but would the customers use it if available?


How about any old synthetic JASO FD oil ?
Although your point about customers using it is taken.

Walked past a Land Cruiser ute in town yesterday, Stihl saws in the back and a couple of containers of straight engine oil sitting alongside.
Pre mix inside ? or to be used for bar oil ? or even the engine ?
Could be all of the above. People aren't too careful or even switched on.
Usually ignorance, sometimes complacent.
 
Originally Posted By: hate2work
The biggest mistake people STILL make with 2 cycle oil is that they think the motor/machine they are running requires a certain ratio.

Not true, the ratio is determined by the oil, and there is only one optimum ratio for every oil.


I am confused by this logic.

I just purchased a new STIHL trimmer that recommends a 50:1 mix

The STIHL oil from the dealer also says 50:1

So you're saying if I decide to use a different brand of oil that has a different mixture, my machine is suddenly now a 40 or 32:1 ???
 
If you were to go from 50:1 to 32:1 your engine would run too lean and possibly over heat. With premix oil displaces fuel in the mix. With 50:1 you are running about 2% oil, for 32:1 it is about 3.1% oil. Gas is the main source of cooling for a 2 stroke. The carb is calibrated to meter fuel a set rate. So your engine would see 1% less gas with 32:1. 1% may not seem like much, and it may not cause engine damage. But most engines are set to run as lean as they can without sacrificing performance. That 1% can move them out of the safe zone and cause them to run like [censored].

For a 2 stroke engine that is going to see extened periods of wot, it is best to run just a little bit rich on the high speed circuit. That is how desert racers keep their engines together running wide open for miles at the time.

I run a 32:1 mix in everything from my CR250R to my chainsaw and weed eater regardless of oil brand. Both my saw and weed eater ran like [censored] until I adjusted the carb to compensate for the leaner a/f mixure.
 
Stihl HP Ultra is highly regarded in the small air cooled two stroke aviation world. RC and UAV. Included fuel stabilizer also helps the infrequent user.
 
Sometimes, these threads seem insane...
wink.gif

Ofcourse you can take a yamaha outboard with a 100:1 recommendation and smack it full of some old 2T oil at 16:1. It will however bee very gooey, you may have to clean the plugs and you may also suffer a lean condition that may not be good for ya.

You can also take a race kart, mix amsoil at 100:1 and get both a rich condition and a really messed up engine at raceday, especially if you hear the 4-stroking and lean it out to get some rpm and in the process removes even more oil.

But really, all in all, in small engines and less loaded motors, high quality FD or TCW3 for marine, at 2% is good. Really good.
 
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