Stellantis/Chrysler/Jeep shutting down the Belvidere, IL plant

[PWMDMD]

It really helps to be neighbors with states that are run badly.

When big companies like GE leave the high taxes of CT for the “lower” taxes of MA, it’s not that MA is doing a good job, they’re just doing better than CT and NY.

As I said, I have no complaints. My school system is well-funded. I have access to top-tier public universities (I'm currently matriculating at UMass Amherst for my MBA). The roads are in good condition and the other infrastructure is well-funded. All of my friends and peers are not only gainfully employed but they are doing well. Not only is our budget balanced but we had a surplus and the state gave me back about $2,000.

It's always interesting to me to hear about the woes of other states and when the economy slumps because as a business owner in 2008 in CT it was really business as usual. No real pain for me or most of my friends all of whom were in different business sectors. I hear the doom and gloom right now and I have to be honest it's pretty much business as usual here again. Sure, prices are up, and there are some staffing difficulties but even those are starting to normalize (we had two very good staff members move down south 1 1/2 years ago and they are both heading back to Mass and asked for their jobs back because there were no jobs down south for them), people still have good jobs here, new businesses are still opening up here, home prices are still high, etc.

Now could there be improvements? Sure, but when I travel to other states and I see what's going on there I'll happily pay a little extra tax because I actually get something in return - that is a stable and almost always growing economy. Even the cost of living where I am is very affordable.

As an aside, I used to live 2 miles from GE headquarters in Fairfield CT and I passed it every day on my way to work.

 

[10WSmuckers]

So this plant assembles another bland crossover that's on an old platform, weighed down with the 9 speed ZF baggage, and prices got hiked as they eliminated the base trim/drivetrain so a low trim new Grand Cherokee makes more sense to buy. One step below, the Compass now has the fresh interior and new drivetrain coming, which is essentially as spacious as the current Cherokee and costs far less. So now the Cherokee is an irrelevant vehicle now for Jeep, I'm sure they'll fill the gap with something like a Compass L or rebadged Hornet and stupid Americans will overpay for those like usual.

 

[Pew]

It's especially telling considering the incentives the state gave DSM to build the plant there in the first place. Another good example is the empty former-Motorola factory in Harvard.

I thought Navistar in Lisle/Naperville closed down decades ago too but I guess they're still going. Their parking lot always looks empty.

Its a very common issue here in IL. Our property taxes are ridiculous, some of the highest in the nation. Chicago runs everything and ruins the rest of the state with the idiotic legislature they pass ever year. Jobs keep moving to the neighboring states, along with the people. Kinda wish I would have left back in the early 2000s when I was considering it, now I guess I will wait until retirement.

Caterpillar moved its headquarters from Peoria to the Chicago area a few years ago and is now moving its headquarters to Texas. They have tried to tell the state (Chicago) for years that they are taxing everyone out of the state, both people and businesses, yet it does nothing but fall on deaf ears. I was surprised Rivian decided to buy the old Mistubishi plant and get it going again but considering the poor business decisions that Rivian makes I suppose I shouldn't be.

A buddy of mine used to work at the Caterpiller location in Peoria before it closed. Luckily the offered to move him to another Cat location in another state. The biggest hedge fund owner in IL owns The Citadel building in downtown Chicago and is moving to Florida. He's completely fed up with the City and won't listen to whatever stay-plea they're giving him. ComED, Nicor, all the big engineering and utility firms moving out of the city too.

 

[LDM]

I thought Navistar in Lisle/Naperville closed down decades ago too but I guess they're still going. Their parking lot always looks empty.




A buddy of mine used to work at the Caterpiller location in Peoria before it closed. Luckily the offered to move him to another Cat location in another state. The biggest hedge fund owner in IL owns The Citadel building in downtown Chicago and is moving to Florida. He's completely fed up with the City and won't listen to whatever stay-plea they're giving him. ComED, Nicor, all the big engineering and utility firms moving out of the city too.

Still know some people that work at Cat but a lot of those that I know have left for better jobs. Most that still work there are those in the Morton parts location as that place is probably one of their busiest locations. Everyone needs parts it seems.

I even worked for Cat for a short period of time, in IT, but they decided to lay us off and send our jobs to India. 6 months later they were asking for us to come back as whatever useless black belt Six Sigma moron who came up with the idea found out that it wasn't a very good one. By then we had all found other jobs and told them to shove it. I'd imagine that anyone working there would gladly take a position in another state to transfer to, especially if Cat was offering to help pay for their move.

 

[LDM]

As I said, I have no complaints. My school system is well-funded. I have access to top-tier public universities (I'm currently matriculating at UMass Amherst for my MBA). The roads are in good condition and the other infrastructure is well-funded. All of my friends and peers are not only gainfully employed but they are doing well. Not only is our budget balanced but we had a surplus and the state gave me back about $2,000.

It's always interesting to me to hear about the woes of other states and when the economy slumps because as a business owner in 2008 in CT it was really business as usual. No real pain for me or most of my friends all of whom were in different business sectors. I hear the doom and gloom right now and I have to be honest it's pretty much business as usual here again. Sure, prices are up, and there are some staffing difficulties but even those are starting to normalize (we had two very good staff members move down south 1 1/2 years ago and they are both heading back to Mass and asked for their jobs back because there were no jobs down south for them), people still have good jobs here, new businesses are still opening up here, home prices are still high, etc.

Now could there be improvements? Sure, but when I travel to other states and I see what's going on there I'll happily pay a little extra tax because I actually get something in return - that is a stable and almost always growing economy. Even the cost of living where I am is very affordable.

As an aside, I used to live 2 miles from GE headquarters in Fairfield CT and I passed it every day on my way to work.

IL schools are also some of the worst in the nation, especially in Chicago. They steal all the state tax dollars to fund the Chicago public schools so they can pay teachers 3 different pensions. Some of the teachers make over $150K a year to essentially do nothing. The property taxes that are suppose to go to the schools at the local level end up in the pockets of the administration. Makes me glad I never had any kids but also disgusts me that my tax dollars pay for this fraud.

 

[Slow Car Sport Mode]

I know someone lives in Dundee, Illinois.. I dont know, Chicago sure does dominate the whole state but @High Performance Lubricants is in Manteno so there must be SOME incentive to be there.

 

[camrydriver111]

When you blame the government keep in mind that Cherokee sales have been plummeting and the car is nearly a decade old.

Would you buy a brand new Cherokee right now?

 

[PWMDMD]

IL schools are also some of the worst in the nation, especially in Chicago. They steal all the state tax dollars to fund the Chicago public schools so they can pay teachers 3 different pensions. Some of the teachers make over $150K a year to essentially do nothing. The property taxes that are suppose to go to the schools at the local level end up in the pockets of the administration. Makes me glad I never had any kids but also disgusts me that my tax dollars pay for this fraud.

Interesting comment since I have seen it several times from people who live in southern states talking about northern states. The claim is all the welfare recipients in large northern cities use a disproportionate amount of federal tax dollars compared to southern states. It's also false, the northern states put in much more than they use while many (most) of the southern states take more than they put in.

So here's what I've found for Illinois - for every $1 received in state tax Cook county (Chicago) received about 98 cents back, the Chicago suburbs received 60 cents, while all the rest of the downstate areas received signifcantly more back - anywhere from $1.38 to $2.88.

It's an interesting phenomenon where the people taking the most and putting in the least don't think THEY are the problem and instead accuse the people actually putting in more and receiving less of being the problem.

https://www.farmweeknow.com/policy/...cle_9207435a-ef0f-11eb-8280-ab69354d438c.html

Here is how states contribute to and receive federal tax dollars.

https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/

 

[brianl703]

Interesting comment since I have seen it several times from people who live in southern states talking about northern states. The claim is all the welfare recipients in large northern cities use a disproportionate amount of federal tax dollars compared to southern states.

The Federal subsidy for Virginia is (as of a couple of years ago) $13K per capita. This is the highest among all 50 states. There's one county in Virginia where 25% of the workforce has Federal jobs.

 

[PWMDMD]

The Federal subsidy for Virginia is (as of a couple of years ago) $13K per capita. This is the highest among all 50 states. There's one county in Virginia where 25% of the workforce has Federal jobs.

You're counting having a federal job as a "subsidy"? That's called paying people for work performed. Virginia has very little dependence on federal tax dollars excluding people who work for their dollars compared to many other states.

https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/

 

[GON]

Interesting comment since I have seen it several times from people who live in southern states talking about northern states. The claim is all the welfare recipients in large northern cities use a disproportionate amount of federal tax dollars compared to southern states. It's also false, the northern states put in much more than they use while many (most) of the southern states take more than they put in.

So here's what I've found for Illinois - for every $1 received in state tax Cook county (Chicago) received about 98 cents back, the Chicago suburbs received 60 cents, while all the rest of the downstate areas received signifcantly more back - anywhere from $1.38 to $2.88.

It's an interesting phenomenon where the people taking the most and putting in the least don't think THEY are the problem and instead accuse the people actually putting in more and receiving less of being the problem.

https://www.farmweeknow.com/policy/...cle_9207435a-ef0f-11eb-8280-ab69354d438c.html

PD,

I have never heard that and in fact the exact opposite happens.

Elected officials in states other than the upper Midwest and the Northeast get federal funds to build many/ most things in their respective states. So, states like Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York- pay for the infrastructure for other states, many of these states have little or no state income taxes, etc. Elected official in states like Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York focus things other than brining in federal dollars for major infrastructure projects- so in fact, as you indirectly pointed out, taxpayers in states like Illinois, Pennsylvania, and New York are sending their monies to states with little to no state taxes to build out their infrastructure. I could go deeper but don't want to violate BITOG terms and conditions, which my post is very close to doing.

 

[javacontour]

Interesting comment since I have seen it several times from people who live in southern states talking about northern states. The claim is all the welfare recipients in large northern cities use a disproportionate amount of federal tax dollars compared to southern states. It's also false, the northern states put in much more than they use while many (most) of the southern states take more than they put in.

So here's what I've found for Illinois - for every $1 received in state tax Cook county (Chicago) received about 98 cents back, the Chicago suburbs received 60 cents, while all the rest of the downstate areas received signifcantly more back - anywhere from $1.38 to $2.88.

It's an interesting phenomenon where the people taking the most and putting in the least don't think THEY are the problem and instead accuse the people actually putting in more and receiving less of being the problem.

https://www.farmweeknow.com/policy/...cle_9207435a-ef0f-11eb-8280-ab69354d438c.html

Here is how states contribute to and receive federal tax dollars.

https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/

I've looked extensively at CPS299 funding.
They constitute 20% of the states students.
They spend about 20-25% more than the state average per student.
They do not local fund at the state average rate, meaning they need state and federal funds to achieve the funding levels.
They don't even meet state averages when it comes to education attainment.
CPS299 is a complete failure when you look at the money spent vs the results. Let me see if I can find what I worked up a few years ago. It's probably worse post-C19.

 

[brianl703]

You're counting having a federal job as a "subsidy"? That's called paying people for work performed. Virginia has very little dependence on federal tax dollars excluding people who work for their dollars compared to many other states.

Virginia, unlike other states, is not (very) dependent on the private sector to provide employment. The private sector in other states that generates the tax dollars that pay Virginians who work for the government may well consider it a subsidy.

If it weren't for DC, Virginia would be as broke as Mississippi or Louisiana.

 

[PWMDMD]

PD,

I have never heard that and in fact the exact opposite happens.

Elected officials in states other than the upper Midwest and the Northeast get federal funds to build many/ most things in their respective states. So, states like Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York- pay for the infrastructure for other states, many of these states have little or no state income taxes, etc. Elected official in states like Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York focus things other than brining in federal dollars for major infrastructure projects- so in fact, as you indirectly pointed out, taxpayers in states like Illinois, Pennsylvania, and New York are sending their monies to states with little to no state taxes to build out their infrastructure. I could go deeper but don't want to violate BITOG terms and conditions, which my post is very close to doing.

This is exactly my point. The southern counties of Illinois had ballet questions about seceding from the state and I've heard it many times from southern states - good luck with that - they will all be impoverished.

 

[javacontour]

From 2017, but the numbers really have not changed all that much.

2017-07-27

the reality is CPS gets more per student than the state average.

https://www.illinoisreportcard.com/...ce2=revenuepercentages&Districtid=15016299025

While the typical school district in the state of IL self funds spending at 67.4%, getting only 25% of their funds from the state, CPS only self funds 51.7% (and that's up, I've seen it below 50% in years past) and gets almost 34% of it's funds from the state.

CPS299 spends approximately 25% more than the state average per student. This is true when you look at just instructional spending, or you add all spending (operational spending.) While the typical district in the state spends $12.8k/student, CPS299 spends $15.3k/student.

https://www.illinoisreportcard.com/...ce2=perstudentspending&Districtid=15016299025

From what I can see in the state published report cards, CPS299 is taking more than it's fair share of state funds for education.

One other thing to consider in my analysis above. The sheer size of CPS299 means it distorts the numbers. I believe CPS299 is 20% of all students in the state. So their sheer size drives up the state funding average and drives down the self funding figures.

So if CPS299 is indeed 20% of the total student population, the real state averages without CPS are:

Self Funding: 71.3%
State Funding: 22.8
Federal Funding: 5.9
Funding Per Student 12.2k

22.8% of 12.2k is 2.78k
34% of 15.3 is is 5.20k almost 2x as much as the rest of the state gets on average.

CPS299 really skews the numbers with about 20% of the students in the state.

392k students in CPS299 out of a state enrollment of 2 million. That is almost exactly 20%

 

[javacontour]

This is exactly my point. The southern counties of Illinois had ballet questions about seceding from the state and I've heard it many times from southern states - good luck with that - they will all be impoverished.

Not really. The overall difference in taxes paid per capita is about 5% when you look at the Chicago MSA vs downstate IL.
We also have lower costs because Chicago cannot seem to capitalize on what should be a great asset, economies of scale.

I suspect a great deal of the extra tax revenue paid by folks in the Chicago MSA is consumed by the higher costs of doing business.
The answer is likely in the middle. Downstate IL would be better off than folks North of I80 think they would be. But we wouldn't be as well off as folks think we would be when it comes to being separate from Chicago.

Like most things, the answer is likely between the two extreme views.

 

[PWMDMD]

I've looked extensively at CPS299 funding.
They constitute 20% of the states students.
They spend about 20-25% more than the state average per student.
They do not local fund at the state average rate, meaning they need state and federal funds to achieve the funding levels.
They don't even meet state averages when it comes to education attainment.
CPS299 is a complete failure when you look at the money spent vs the results. Let me see if I can find what I worked up a few years ago. It's probably worse post-C19.

All of what you said may be true and Chicago schools may use more dollars per capita than other areas but overall Chicago as a whole uses fewer state tax dollars - considerably less when compared to the southern region of the state. The bottom line is the further you get from Chicago the less money is put into the pot relative to the money taken from the pot. Insert any other expense paid for with tax dollars and why can't the Chicagians ask the exact same question you did about Chicago schools about the rest of the state?

 

[GON]

This is exactly my point. The southern counties of Illinois had ballet questions about seceding from the state and I've heard it many times from southern states - good luck with that - they will all be impoverished.

Every man, woman, and child (to include babies born this morning in the state of Illinois ), individually - already owe, are personally in debt over $100k in entitlement debts to the state of Illinois. With that debt on the balance sheet of every man, woman, and child that is a resident of Illinois- I think the vast majority of Illinois residents are already impoverished- they may not be fully aware of it........ just yet.

States with residents that reflect those of 90 percent of the counties of Illinois do just fine, as long as the state doesn't take the money they earn, and don't discourage private economic activities.

 

[PWMDMD]

Every man, woman, and child (to include babies born this morning in the state of Illinois ), individually - already owe, are personally in debt over $100k in entitlement debts to the state of Illinois. With that debt on the balance sheet of every man, woman, and child that is a resident of Illinois- I think the vast majority of Illinois are already impoverished- they may not be fully aware of it........ just yet.

States with residents that reflect those of 90 percent of the counties of Illinois do just fine, as long as the state doesn't take the money they earn, and don't discourage private economic activities.

I'm in no way defending the state - just the idea that Chicago uses all the tax dollars. The state as whole sounds terribly mismanaged. As I said, MA has a surplus and just wrote checks independent of normal tax refunds to taxpayers so it is possible.

 

[brianl703]

Does Illinois have a mechanism like Virginia's "Local Composite Index", where the state funds local school districts according to their ability to pay for them?

In Virginia, this serves to take tax dollars collected in Northern Virginia and send them to the rest of the state. Any talk of secession I've heard has been from people who live in Northern Virginia and feel that they are subsidizing the rest of the state.