Starter won't stop

[Grebbler]

Yeah, solenoid get confused with relay all the time. To me, a solenoid is an electromagnet the when energized provides a motion to actuate something and a relay, while similar, is used to move electrical contacts.

Your starter has a solenoid on it to move the bendix gear to the flywheel.

The starter relay on the fender is often called a solenoid.

Anyway, for your problem I would be looking at the ignition switch. It's a spring loaded slide switch mounted on the lower steering column at it does all the Start/Acy/Run electrical work. The ignition key cylinder just has a rod going down to move the switch.

These switches can get gummy and not slide well or the internal spring is weak or broken. Over time this causes the plastic hole/slot that the linkage rod fits into to wear and become sloppy. This explains why the starter mode is not fully disengaging and can also explain why the dead battery. You pull the key out but its still partially in RUN mode and powering the ignition coil. The switch could just be old and burned up a bit causing the internal contacts to slide around. Look for scorching or melting on the switch and harness plug.

This switch may just be loose or need adjusting by sliding it up or down on the column.

A bent or stretched linkage rod from the key to the switch will act like a shorter or longer rod and do the same thing.

My money is on the switch.

 

[mattd]

fender mounted starter solenoid stuck closed. Common issue.

 

[Yuk]

Originally Posted By: mattd
fender mounted starter solenoid stuck closed. Common issue.


There is no fender mounted solenoid. The only relay/solenoid (what it is depends on who you talk to ...

. It is above the passenger's side headlight ) has already been changed.

 

[Yuk]

Originally Posted By: Grebbler
Yeah, solenoid get confused with relay all the time. To me, a solenoid is an electromagnet the when energized provides a motion to actuate something and a relay, while similar, is used to move electrical contacts.

Your starter has a solenoid on it to move the bendix gear to the flywheel.

The starter relay on the fender is often called a solenoid.

Anyway, for your problem I would be looking at the ignition switch. It's a spring loaded slide switch mounted on the lower steering column at it does all the Start/Acy/Run electrical work. The ignition key cylinder just has a rod going down to move the switch.

These switches can get gummy and not slide well or the internal spring is weak or broken. Over time this causes the plastic hole/slot that the linkage rod fits into to wear and become sloppy. This explains why the starter mode is not fully disengaging and can also explain why the dead battery. You pull the key out but its still partially in RUN mode and powering the ignition coil. The switch could just be old and burned up a bit causing the internal contacts to slide around. Look for scorching or melting on the switch and harness plug.

This switch may just be loose or need adjusting by sliding it up or down on the column.

A bent or stretched linkage rod from the key to the switch will act like a shorter or longer rod and do the same thing.

My money is on the switch.


I was hoping you were right, but my inspection seems to show otherwise. The rod is clean and moves freely. The switch is also relatively clean and also moves freely.

These pics may not show the whole story, but they might give you a bit of visual information.

 

[The_Eric]

A quick and dirty test to see if the switch or noid/relay is bad is to pull the noid/relay trigger wire off while the starter is hanging up.

If it quits, it's the switch. If it doesn't, it's the noid/relay.

Did you ever replace/verify the battery cables (ground lead to noid/relay and lead from noid/relay to starter)?

Excessive current draw is what kills them and bad connections cause a voltage drop and excessive current draw. Yes, a faulty starter can possibly do it too, but a faulty starter doesn't always draw extra amperage.

 

[Yuk]

I will definitely check out those leads.

Whatever the problem is, it smoked the 2.5 month-old battery. I just tried to give it a charge and it is stone cold, maybe never to be resurrected dead! My charger won't even recognize that it is attached to anything. I wonder how the store will prorate it?

 

[Grebbler]

So much for that Vegas trip....

How freely does the switch move? It should not slide or rattle back and forth. It should have detentes to snap and hold the slider in each position and take some effort with a screwdriver tip to move it to each mode. The switch has 5 positions in the following order:

Accessory > LOCK > OFF > RUN > START

All positions except START should have stiff click stops to index each mode. START has a stiff spring to return it to RUN when you let go if the key.

If the detentes or return spring is soft or missing the switch is bad. A broken spring or tab inside the switch can short the contacts.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

You could disconnect the trip wire on the starter relay and hook a test light or a meter to it and try to replicate the problem while sliding the switch in and out of the START position. If the light stays on or flickers, in any position except when pushed against the start return spring, the switch is bad.

The trip wire on the starter relay will be the small red/lime green wire. You can test it there or on the white/pink wire at the switch.

You can also use a wire or something connect the post you took the trigger off of to the positive battery lead to crank the starter (in PARK - key off) a bunch of times and see if the relay is sticking. It can happen if the starter is pulling too much current.

A long shot may be the TFI Ignition Module. It has a connection to the trip wire in order to sense cranking and do some magic.

Hey, just tossing some ideas to you.

Good luck!

EDIT: LOL With interruptions it took me over an hour to type this up. Eric beat me.

 

[Yuk]

So I just installed the new switch. I thought why not do it, it's only $16.00? Although the old one still had crisp clicks, they were not "stiff" clicks. After the installation I went to connect my freshly charged battery and it arced enough to start a camp fire! That arcing would seem to indicate to me that somewhere, something drawing power... Like maybe the starter. Am I correct?

 

[Yuk]

The latest report.

In addition to the original relay, I've now replaced the ignition switch, the positive and negative leads and the starter. With each part replaced, I reattached the battery and hoped the problem was cured. Each time, sparks flew and I heard the frustrating sound of the starter cranking without the key being in the ignition. Early on I was told on this forum to replace the relay with Ford factory part to avoid the relay failing second time. I put the after market part of my garage shelf and installed the OEM part. Well tonight, frustrated by the lack success I replaced the Ford relay with the aftermarket piece and guess what... Everything is finally working. So much for OEM.

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: Yuk
The latest report.

In addition to the original relay, I've now replaced the ignition switch, the positive and negative leads and the starter. With each part replaced, I reattached the battery and hoped the problem was cured. Each time, sparks flew and I heard the frustrating sound of the starter cranking without the key being in the ignition. Early on I was told on this forum to replace the relay with Ford factory part to avoid the relay failing second time. I put the after market part of my garage shelf and installed the OEM part. Well tonight, frustrated by the lack success I replaced the Ford relay with the aftermarket piece and guess what... Everything is finally working. So much for OEM.


Not so fast with the so much for the OEM part bit... Once the contacts have arced together, no amount of switching parts is going to cure it. Think of them as being welded together. If there's something that is not up to snuff, even an OEM relay will get toasted.

I'm working on an older Ford right now and supposedly there is no longer an OEM available, so I had to use a Standard part. Replaced all cables and have a fresh battery and so far, so good.

 

[Yuk]

Originally Posted By: The_Eric

Not so fast with the so much for the OEM part bit... Once the contacts have arced together, no amount of switching parts is going to cure it. Think of them as being welded together. If there's something that is not up to snuff, even an OEM relay will get toasted.

I'm working on an older Ford right now and supposedly there is no longer an OEM available, so I had to use a Standard part. Replaced all cables and have a fresh battery and so far, so good.


How would I determine that this "welding" occurred?

Thanks.

BTW, My written words may have sounded harsher than I intended. I appreciate all of the input. I'm just feeling a little tired after running around in circles trying to solve this problem.

 

[SteveSRT8]

The above sorry saga is a classic. Thank you for sharing the pain!

This is a classical story of how correct diagnosis is the key. Throwing parts at it is rarely the best way to fix any car.

Glad things worked out in the end...

 

[Vikas]

Quote:
How would I determine that this "welding" occurred?


This is trivial with multimeter and few wires.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Yuk


How would I determine that this "welding" occurred?

Thanks.


If the small "control" wires that just plug on the relay are removed and it still cranks, problem is relay... No if's and's or but's... If cranking ceases then could be iginition sw or other wiring issue...

 

[Yuk]

Being the "glass half full" person that I am, I'm going to look at these events this way. Although the problem was never professionally diagnosed, I feel fairly confident the original problem was a faulty relay. The least expensive, reputable shop I know charges $85.00/hr. If I had taken the van to that shop it would have cost me approximately $200.00 to diagnose the problem, purchase the relay and R&R the part (including sundries and tax).

We know the first replacement relay failed as well. Had I again gone to a professional for the second repair I would have incurred another $200.00 plus a towing charge. All totaled, almost $500.00.

Instead, I personally installed both relays and about about $190.00 worth of extra, "unneeded" parts. My total cash outlay was about $300.00, including tax and gas to run around buying the various parts. I'm not putting a price on my personal labour, simply because I actually enjoy working on my cars as a hobby. So, the way I look at it I actually came out ahead by $200.00. I also think I have gained some unmeasurable reliability, because of the other new parts that would not have been installed by a professional... Of course these perceived benefits could go flying out the window if tomorrow the van doesn't start, or starter wont stop again.

Thanks again for everyone's help.