Spark plug torque when using anti-seize

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Originally Posted by kschachn
Per the manufacturer WD-40 does not contain silicone. Besides, it's going in the combustion chamber and not directly into the exhaust stream.

Err, once in the chamber it winds up going downstream.

But it's WD40, it's mostly oil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40
 
Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo
Originally Posted by Reddy45

Toyota factory dry spec = 15 lb-ft

Denso's own spec for this specific plug (K20HR-U11) is 15-22 lb-ft in an aluminum head.

Denso also says to reduce torque by 30% when using anti-seize.


Looking at Denso's numbers, I'd almost believe they already told you what to use when using antiseize: 22 lb-ft x .70 (30% less) = 15.4 lb-ft.

Your number of 10.5 seems AWFULLY low; maybe Trav can weigh in, but I'd think you're risking blowing a plug out at that low. If I were you I'd personally torque them to 15 with antiseize.


The problem with this endless topic/debate is that I think 10.5 lb-ft with antiseize has the same holding strength as 15 lb-ft dry... but it's tough to see it that way since we perceive torque as being a one dimensional measurement?
 
Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by kschachn
Per the manufacturer WD-40 does not contain silicone. Besides, it's going in the combustion chamber and not directly into the exhaust stream.

Err, once in the chamber it winds up going downstream.

But it's WD40, it's mostly oil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40


I know the feel of silicone when i feel it. Cant get it off even with soap. Hate it.

Water displacing.

Web Misinformation.


But. I could be wrong
I've believed this for years - and a guy in the shop years ago killed a toyota o2 sensor with the stuff cleaning a throttle body.
 
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Yes but the 3000+ degree combustion temperature does a lot to convert it to silicon dioxide or some other harmless oxide. I could be wrong but I've never seen where the silicone made it through that to harm an oxygen sensor. There are a lot of silicone sealants used prior to the combustion in an engine.
 
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I know the feel of silicone when i feel it.

Water displacing.

Web Misinformation.

The manufacturer of the product is not spreading misinformation:
Quote
While the ingredients in WD-40® Multi-Use Product are secret, we can tell you what it does NOT contain. WD-40® Multi-Use Product does not contain silicone, kerosene, water, graphite, or chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs).

https://www.wd40.com/faqs
 
I hate the stuff. I always used CRC products professionally. They work better.
If I needed a penetrant for exhaust manifolds or spring U bolts Id reach for the CRC 5-56.

I hate WD-40.
 
Originally Posted by thescreensavers
Adding anything to the threads WILL change the K value (Wrench Torque = K *Axial Force*bolt dia )

Most anti size manufactures will list K values for their anti-seize. You may email permatex for an answer but I found these with a quick google.

Quote
In the case of Permatex products the K factors are -

* Standard Anti-Seize K = 0.18
* Copper Anti-Seize K = 0.16
* Nickel Anti-Seize K = 0.13


If Normal Dry threads are 0.2, and std AS is .18,

So for example using 15 ft/lb or 180 inch-lb with M14 thread

180 in-lb = .2 * F * .551(M14)

Solving for F (Axial force or clamp force)

Dry Threads Axial Force (Clamp Load) = 1633.4 lbs
Standard Anti-Seize = Axial Force (Clamp Load) = 1814.9
Nickel Anti-Seize K= Axial Force (Clamp Load) = 2512.9

11% Increase in clamp load(std AS), for the same equivalent dry torque you can lower your wrench to 162 in-lb or 13.5 ft/lb when using Anti-seize.
Nickle though that's a whopping 54% increase in clamp load, you would want to lower your torque values accordingly. To 117 in-lb or 10ft/lb

In reality, YMMV as K value is different with every bolt, anti-seize or lubricant does even that variation out but, when you add the friction of the head into the calculation, your preload/clamp force can actually vary more than 11% with a torque wrench(±25-30%) so that is likely why permatex says to use normal torque spec, as it is within error.


From the Permatex web site TDS for their anti seize product. I think they may know a thing or two about anti seize compounds:

5. Apply Anti Seize to the parts that require protection.
6. Reassemble parts using normal torque values.
 
Originally Posted by willbur
From the Permatex web site TDS for their anti seize product. I think they may know a thing or two about anti seize compounds:

5. Apply Anti Seize to the parts that require protection.
6. Reassemble parts using normal torque values.

I'd follow their directions.
 
Originally Posted by daman
Two pages?

Spin them in snug 'em down call it a day.


Yup- BITOG ppl over think this stuff. It ain't rocket science. Two pages? probably 10s of pages. It never dies!LOL
 
Why use anti-seize? I thought that basically every spark plug plug manufacturer recommends against it with nickel plated threads.

But yeah - snug and tight. I remember the last time I tried I couldn't even get the crush washer to flatten. Might have even overtorqued them. It was weird too as I've done plenty of them and the washer would always flatten.
 
Toyota does not specify using anti-seize.

I would remove the plugs and install new plugs w/o anti-seize (do not reuse the old ones) and torque to the specified 15 ft-lbs.
 
Originally Posted by The Critic
Toyota does not specify using anti-seize.

I would remove the plugs and install new plugs w/o anti-seize (do not reuse the old ones) and torque to the specified 15 ft-lbs.


This is absurd advice.
 
Originally Posted by Reddy45
Originally Posted by The Critic
Toyota does not specify using anti-seize.

I would remove the plugs and install new plugs w/o anti-seize (do not reuse the old ones) and torque to the specified 15 ft-lbs.


This is absurd advice.

Why?

The washers on the plugs are one-time use.

It is almost impossible to clean all of the anti-seize from the spark plug threads. If you have ever seen plugs back out and cause damage, six new plugs is cheap insurance in comparison.
 
This depends on the condition of the threads in the head and what the head is made of, along with the length of the threads. Short plug threads in aluminum - dry with factory torque if you can fit the wrench. Or practice on an external bolt to get the feel of that torque with hand wrench.

3/4 threads into iron head - never seize for sure, snug and 1/4 turn with washers. Less than 1/8 turn with tapered seats.

Black nitrided plugs into aluminum with washer - never seize and snug plus 1/8 turn.

You have to know what the materials will act like in repeated hot/cold cycles and how much moisture they will experience. Boat plugs, almost always never seize. Desert run truck with nickle plated plugs, not so much ...
 
In the rust belt it pays to use anti-seize on various components, including spark plugs. You guys from the warm states can get away with lots of things that folks up north cannot, or it will quickly catch up to them.

Having moved to CA from a place that pretty much defines what "rust belt" really is, I can compare first hand the difference between vehicles that see salt in winter vs. ones that don't and I can tell you it is huge.
 
Originally Posted by The Critic
Originally Posted by Reddy45
Originally Posted by The Critic
Toyota does not specify using anti-seize.

I would remove the plugs and install new plugs w/o anti-seize (do not reuse the old ones) and torque to the specified 15 ft-lbs.


This is absurd advice.

Why?

The washers on the plugs are one-time use.

It is almost impossible to clean all of the anti-seize from the spark plug threads. If you have ever seen plugs back out and cause damage, six new plugs is cheap insurance in comparison.


Ford only says to use it when specified in the manual or a TSB. I don't use it anymore. The one time I did a plug shot out, never again.
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Having moved to CA from a place that pretty much defines what "rust belt" really is, I can compare first hand the difference between vehicles that see salt in winter vs. ones that don't and I can tell you it is huge.

Great, another person who now I have to hate, simply on the basis of moving to a rust-free zone...
mad.gif


[I'm kidding! well, mostly.]
 
Originally Posted by KrisZ
In the rust belt it pays to use anti-seize on various components, including spark plugs. You guys from the warm states can get away with lots of things that folks up north cannot, or it will quickly catch up to them.

Having moved to CA from a place that pretty much defines what "rust belt" really is, I can compare first hand the difference between vehicles that see salt in winter vs. ones that don't and I can tell you it is huge.

On the other hand I've never used antisieze on any of the plugs in my four cars, and after about 1.2 million miles in the rustiest of rust belts I haven't had an issue yet. Granted I've used either NGK or Denso plugs with the proper plating, so maybe if you are using some sort of inferior plug with no plating it might be a problem.

I also like the torque angle method of tightening since it is often impossible to use a torque wrench on some of the plugs.
 
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