Spark plug torque when using anti-seize

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Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Jeff never EVER use WD40 near an engine!

The silicone in the WD is a Lambda sensor killer.

On Gasketed plugs. Just like a drain plug with a new washer.

Tighten until the gasket crushes and you feel the torque start to ramp ramp up - then stop.

Non- gasketed use the stretch angle specified.

Double post mistake; apologies.
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Jeff never EVER use WD40 near an engine!

The silicone in the WD is a Lambda sensor killer.

On Gasketed plugs. Just like a drain plug with a new washer.

Tighten until the gasket crushes and you feel the torque start to ramp ramp up - then stop.

Non- gasketed use the stretch angle specified.

FYI, I just do a small spray just to clean the threads. It is amazing to me how plug threads get gummed up; how difficult screwing new plugs in can be.
Especially on older cars. It kills me to twist hard on, say an older Civic.
With the small spray, I can spin 'em in easy.
I guess I never put a fastener in dry. Especially if there is any real drag.
I hate galled threads, more worser than ANYTHING! (poor grammar for emphasis)

I appreciate everyone's advice.
 
That is quite true, most of the time you cant get a torque tool in the confined spaces of some V engines anyway, I just snug them then a hair after the washer crushes.
15 Nm is more than enough to crush the washer so he is okay. I wouldn't touch the plugs again until they needed replacement.
Someone said he should remove the plugs and replace them because you can never get all the never seize out of the threads, might as remove and toss the head if that were the case.

Brake cleaner will get the bulk of it off but its not necessary, its not doing any harm but it may prevent a stuck plug in the future. I don't understand why ( I do but its for their benefit not the consumer) NGK is publishing that crap, they need to have the next "plated" plug that seizes in the head shoved up their back side with a lit road flare.
Honestly whoever wrote than crap probably never worked on a car at all and certainly not in the rust belt, I have had many "plated" plugs stick in the head when installed dry.

IMO The op did a good job and I would not do it any differently, I probably wouldn't be using a TW just snugging them up instead but they wouldn't be much more than 15 Nm if at all. I can say I have installed every single spark pug I have done in the last 48 years (since trade school where I learned to use it) with a thin coat of anti seize and never had one issue or a stuck plug or a blown out plug that I installed.
I have installed more plugs than most people have had hot dinners, literally.

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm


Bolt Torque
 
Originally Posted by Trav

Someone said he should remove the plugs and replace them because you can never get all the never seize out of the threads, might as remove and toss the head if that were the case.


Come on Trav, it makes far more sense to clean up the threads on a head than it is to clean anti-seize off of a $15-$20/set of Denso 3381 plugs.

I respect you but we agree to disagree on the anti-seize issue. Toyota does not specify it in this application and for the most part, plugs seizing is a non-issue.
 
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
Jeff never EVER use WD40 near an engine!


There are no siloxanes/silanes in WD-40. Now silicone spray is another story. And detailers do abuse rubber dressing in the engine bay.
 
I've always used anti-seize on my plug heads and I usually run them down between 1/4-1/2 turn by hand once I feel the gasket touches the head. If it's tapered, 1/16-1/8th of a turn once contact has been made.

Never had a problem with a plug.
 
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I hate the stuff. I always used CRC products professionally. They work better.
If I needed a penetrant for exhaust manifolds or spring U bolts Id reach for the CRC 5-56.

I hate WD-40.

I know what you mean. The only thing I hate worse is bad information.
shocked2.gif
 
We have to agree to disagree on this issue. I have worked in the rust belt everywhere I have lived and stuck plugs are a common occurrence especially when they have been in the engine a long time. On the old Ford Kent engines if you didn't pull the plugs when new and anti seize them there was a good chance you would be pulling the head when it came time time to change them.
Blowing off plugs with brake cleaner isn't going to cost much and is easier than cleaning the threads in the head but there is not need so its a moot point.

Few manufacturers recommend anti seize unless they have had problems then they have no problem posting a tsb to use it (Ford for one) but its not because it has no benefit. The reason is liability, there is no way they can give a torque spec when they have no control over the type of anti seize used and how much it will effect the torque on the threads.

Work up here for a year and you will see what I am talking about. Rust, rot, corroded everything and anything is the norm not the exception. I had to cut an expansion valve super carefully down the top and bottom with a mirror and a used (making it smaller) cutoff wheel. The small diameter 4x50mm bolts were rotted in the valve.
If I cut this wrong the evaporator would need to come out and that's a 10- 14hr job on this car. I doubt you will ever see such things where you are.
Yes re assembled with anti seize on the whole length of the bolts not just the threads.
 
I know what some plug manufacturers state regarding anit-seize. I've also installed literally tens of thousands of plugs. If I were new to installing plugs, I'd get a high quality torque wrench that has a range which has the specified torque value roughly in the middle of the torque wrench's range.

From decades of experience, I put a bit of anti-seize on all plugs, plated or not, and install them by feel. Never an issue.

In short, as a former Master Tech, I agree with Trav, a current Master Tech.
 
Originally Posted by Piston_slap
Originally Posted by ARCOgraphite
I hate the stuff. I always used CRC products professionally. They work better.
If I needed a penetrant for exhaust manifolds or spring U bolts Id reach for the CRC 5-56.

I hate WD-40.

I know what you mean. The only thing I hate worse is bad information.
shocked2.gif



No 1 I always do my own research and dont immediately believe ANYTHING someone says on a forum. Even if they have over 10000 posts
smile.gif


I'm sorry but: WD-40 feels like it it has silioxane, its hard to wash off like it has siloxane and waterproofs like it has siloxane. So i ASSUMED it has siloxane in it.

Maybe the can I had was WD-40 Silicone Lubricant but I thought it was the Blue can. I threw it out after 20 + years.

I apologise for being misleading- but say again - DONT SPRAY anything with silicon compounds anywhere near your engine intake or in the spark plug holes.

I also hate ArmorAll.
 
I have never had a problem using anti-seize on any of my plugs. I don't torque them either. Not sure I even could on the WS6.

We use anti-seize pretty regularly on submarines, but we do submerge the whole thing in salt water. I am just not sure the torque spec of a spark plug is all that critical.
 
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Ford only says to use it when specified in the manual or a TSB. I don't use it anymore. The one time I did a plug shot out, never again.


Was that on one of those "short thread" modular, 4.6 or 5.4? I had that happen to me with or 4.6 Explorer. My mechanic always uses never seize on the plugs and tightens them without a torque wrench. Though it didn't happen right away one of the plugs worked loose and took the cylinder head treads with it. And these were Motorcraft plugs.

Whimsey
 
Originally Posted by Whimsey
Originally Posted by bdcardinal
Ford only says to use it when specified in the manual or a TSB. I don't use it anymore. The one time I did a plug shot out, never again.


Was that on one of those "short thread" modular, 4.6 or 5.4? I had that happen to me with or 4.6 Explorer. My mechanic always uses never seize on the plugs and tightens them without a torque wrench. Though it didn't happen right away one of the plugs worked loose and took the cylinder head treads with it. And these were Motorcraft plugs.

Whimsey


Yes, my mom's 2000 Grand Marquis. I was talking with a Ford SVT engineer years ago about it and he said to follow the FSM or TSBs when it comes to spark plugs and anti-seize.
 
I see them blow out once the originals have been replaced even when nothing was used. I made a day of it on my old Expedition and did them all with the time sert kit, one blown out is one to many for that fiasco. The only thing I can think of is the threads are being damaged when originally installed and further weakened when removed.
Thankfully the Time Sert is a great and permanent repair and not difficult.
 
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
I just looked at a tube of "Permatex Anti-Seize Lubricant" I have, and on the back it says: "Apply a light coat to part. Assemble and torque to manufacturer's soecifications".

So apparently the stuff I have must not change the torque spec enough to worry about.

I find that impossible to believe.
That said, I also find it impossible to believe that anything sensible matters. It's when you go all stoopid that threads get stripped. I have never used a wrench to do plugs, even on aluminum blocks. I just use common sense and realize that I am not trying to plug the Hoover Dam with the thing.


Look at step No. 6 under "Directions for Use" ... "Reassemble parts using normal torque values".

https://441py33rout1ptjxn2lupv31-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/tech_docs/tds/81343.pdf
[GUERILLA EDIT]: or just look here (linked instructions -- direct view):
[Linked Image]
 
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Originally Posted by Trav
Did you see the link I posted regarding this?

http://benmlee.com/4runner/threads/threads.htm


Yes I did. I was simply replying to Ws6 as he seemed to not believe that Permatex makes that statement. Permatex has been making that statement for 30+ years on their anti-seize lubricant. If it's so wrong then why do they continue to state to use the "normal torque spec" when using their product? You'd think the phone would be ringing off the hook of guys complaining about snapping anti-seized applied fasteners by following their use instructiions.

On the old tube I have it actually says "torque to manufacturer's specifications". You might want to contact Permatex to find out why they dpn't mention it will drastically change the torque spec.
 
Something to think about? These engines where designed, and built when everything was brand spanking new 100,000 miles ago. They can't always be replaced the same way, when they have carbon, dirt, and corrosion on the threads!
 
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Originally Posted by ls1mike
I have never had a problem using anti-seize on any of my plugs. I don't torque them either. Not sure I even could on the WS6.

We use anti-seize pretty regularly on submarines, but we do submerge the whole thing in salt water. I am just not sure the torque spec of a spark plug is all that critical.


On some engines, proper torque and not adding anti-seize (which could affect the torque values) is extremely critical. For example, see below:

https://f01.justanswer.com/eurotec/cc33a0af-2931-48a4-a301-1f7e491b3702_79551.pdf

Trav, please take note.

SP1.PNG


SP2.PNG


SP4.PNG
 
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