Southwest wingtip strike (Bonus: American turnaround)

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WINDSOR LOCKS, CT - The Hartford Courant reported that federal investigators are looking into an incident Monday in which a Southwest Airlines plane attempted to land several times at Bradley International Airport, damaging the plane's right wing. The high winds led to severe turbulence causing several frightened passengers to vomit.

The flight eventually landed in Warwick, R.I., according to the Courant. The airline will conduct an internal investigation of the flight. Southwest apologized to passengers and offered ticket refunds and vouchers for future flights.

In a separate incident, an American Airlines flight turned around shortly after takeoff from Bradley on Tuesday. Smoke was reported in the cockpit and three passengers were treated for smoke inhalation.

The FAA is also investigating this incident.
 
Sounds like a wingtip strike in gusty crosswinds.
Not good but not deadly either.
Southwest remains the most reliable and the safest US carrier since its inception.
 
Safest?

Really?

Is that because they've been "cooking the books" on weights? Or on maintenance? Or on arrival times?

You can make the books look pretty good if you're willing to "fudge" the numbers...I've been on a SWA jumpseat when they were 15 minutes late blocking out. Since they didn't have ACARS, there was no electronic report. They called operations on the radio and said, "show us out on time". A flat out lie. Pretty easy to get great numbers when you lie about them.

Flying the airplanes overweight and lying about it is NOT safe. That was revealed last week, that they were probably flying over a thousand flights every day with inaccurate weight calculations...and while SWA scrambled to get their operation straight, they racked up hundreds of cancellations each day that week.

Hundreds.

Burbank over-run wasn't exactly safe. Nor was the Midway over-run. Nor was this wingtip scrape, which, while not deadly this time, is often deadly*. Nor was striking a parked airplane this week in EWR.

*The culture of taxi fast and get there led to this failure. They were aggressively trying to land in really terrible conditions, same pressure for on time performance, same culture, same failure that led to Burbank and Midway. In general, hitting the runway with the wingtip is UNSAFE. It can be fatal. You can't pass this one off as anything other than downright failure on the part of the pilot.
 
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Lots of friction between Southwest corporate and the A&P mechanics over maintenance issues.

Even some lawsuits going around...
 
One approach and a go-around for a second makes sense.
To have tried the third approach was probably foolish, but I don't know what the crew knew or thought and you don't either.
To dismiss the safety culture of WN is to dismiss their long record of not killing passengers, something which cannot be said for your airline nor very many others.
Lack of maintenance?
I flew in Airbuses of your airline back in the bankruptcy days that were in a state no third world carrier would offer.
Side panels falling off, seat upholstery ripped off, carpeting coming up and exterior paint pealing off.
Just awful. I hope that the airframe and engine maintenance was in a better state, but I've never flown on nastier aircraft.
If you want to talk about poor maintenance practices, then you should get a grip.
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
One approach and a go-around for a second makes sense.
To have tried the third approach was probably foolish, but I don't know what the crew knew or thought and you don't either.
To dismiss the safety culture of WN is to dismiss their long record of not killing passengers, something which cannot be said for your airline nor very many others.
Lack of maintenance?
I flew in Airbuses of your airline back in the bankruptcy days that were in a state no third world carrier would offer.
Side panels falling off, seat upholstery ripped off, carpeting coming up and exterior paint pealing off.
Just awful. I hope that the airframe and engine maintenance was in a better state, but I've never flown on nastier aircraft.
If you want to talk about poor maintenance practices, then you should get a grip.






Do you work for SWA?
 
Originally Posted by fdcg27
One approach and a go-around for a second makes sense.
To have tried the third approach was probably foolish, but I don't know what the crew knew or thought and you don't either.
To dismiss the safety culture of WN is to dismiss their long record of not killing passengers, something which cannot be said for your airline nor very many others.
Lack of maintenance?
I flew in Airbuses of your airline back in the bankruptcy days that were in a state no third world carrier would offer.
Side panels falling off, seat upholstery ripped off, carpeting coming up and exterior paint pealing off.
Just awful. I hope that the airframe and engine maintenance was in a better state, but I've never flown on nastier aircraft.
If you want to talk about poor maintenance practices, then you should get a grip.


Their long record of not killing passengers ended in April, with the engine explosion. Perhaps you missed that. They haven't killed anyone in the past 10 months, though.

Their safety culture leaves a lot to be desired, when you look at the over-runs, the taxi mistakes and other pilot errors, you're seeing the tip of the iceberg on a culture that pressures pilots into risk-taking and poor decisions.

The Burbank accident (in 2000, not the one that happened in 2018, in which heavy rain was a factor) was so grossly negligent, that I was stunned. That airplane crossed the threshold at 70 knots above target speed. That is so breathtakingly ugly, so incredibly dangerous, that it caught widespread industry attention. A go around is recommended if you're 15 knots fast at 500'. This crew was nearly 100 knots fast at 500'. Incredible. Just unbelievable. Read the original NTSB report. Here's a wiki link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1455

Sure, SWA fired both the pilots, but that wasn't the first time that SWA landed fast, or long, on a short runway like Burbank. The fact that they landed long, again, in 2018, and during inclement weather, shows a relatively flat learning curve. That one slid off the runway, too, but at least they weren't 70 knots fast and long...just long...in the rain, when they should've gone around...

The LGA crash in 2013, for example, was 100% pilot error. When the captain saw that they were going to land long, instead of doing the safe thing (go around), she took control and shoved the nose down. The airplane landed on the nose gear, causing its collapse and the subsequent crash. She was fired.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_345

There are lots of other recent accidents and incidents, but pilot error is a recurring theme.

When airlines are ranked by safety, SWA is in the top ten world-wide.

So is UAL.

Your assessment of interior condition on a UAL flight isn't an actual safety audit and, to be fair, was 15 years ago, and, as you noted, during bankruptcy, when the company wasn't spending a dime on cosmetics, but I assure you that the airplanes were airworthy.

In the meantime, it was revealed that the weight of passengers and baggage was incorrectly calculated. Without accurate weights, those airplanes may not have been legal to even take off, and their performance was not correctly calculated, making those flights unsafe. Over a thousand flights a day. For years. Millions of flights that were, by definition, unsafe. Nothing happened, which is good, but that doesn't mean that they were operating safely, just that nothing bad happened.

And, SWA is taking their mechanics to court this week. More pressure on employees. Employees that are supposed to keep the flying public safe.

Just like the pressure on the pilots to land even when it's not safe, to lie about times, and to taxi dangerously fast.

We are only seeing the tip of the safety culture iceberg here, and what lies beneath should concern the corporate leaders at SWA, instead of making them pressure employees even harder.
 
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Originally Posted by Astro14
.......The LGA crash in 2013, for example, was 100% pilot error. When the captain saw that they were going to land long, instead of doing the safe thing (go around), she took control and shoved the nose down. The airplane landed on the nose gear, causing its collapse and the subsequent crash. She was fired.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_345


Here is a video shot from the cabin during that fiasco of a, "landing"...... 0:45, "Ladies and gentlemen we are not there!"..... You wanna bet?
 
Okay, WN has killed one passenger in all of its years of operation.
How many have the remaining three legacy carriers killed over the same period of time?
Unless you believe that WN's results are purely luck, one would have to say that the airline places a pretty strong emphasis on safe operations.
In fairness, on the same trip on which we had the third world level A320s, we also flew a leg on a very nice 735, aside from the eighties hot orange interior.
We've also had flights later on UAL A320s and B737s with quite clean and nice interiors.
Love United, Delta, American and Southwest and would fly with any of these carriers timing dependent.
WN won on our last trip simply because the out and back timing worked the best.
Along with no gotchas on class of ticket, Southwest made sense this time.
Next time we might well be on United.
 
Again, in fairness, SWA started flying in the jet age, when dramatic improvements in safety had been pioneered by airlines that had come before. Among them,

United.

It's not fair to compare safety records of a company that was around to make those changes happen. SWA is flying to Hawaii for the first time this year. Using modern planes with turbines and GPS. United started doing it in 1947 with piston engines and a sextant.

So many things that the industry takes for granted today, were, in fact, developed, or introduced by United. For example; flight attendants. In 1930.

http://time.com/3847732/first-stewardess-ellen-church/

Weather radar, airborne radio, crew resource management - all United contributions. There are more, and for that, I recommend that you read this book: https://www.amazon.com/Age-Flight-History-Americas-Pioneering/dp/0966706110

The last fatality caused by pilot error at United was in 1978. In Portland. The ALPA and UAL response to that; Cockpit Resource Management, or CRM, has changed the industry for the better. It's the standard for pilot interaction at every airline, including Southwest.

CRM was a critical enabler in two of the greatest feats of airmanship in modern history, United 232 and United 811, both in 1989. Al Haynes, flying a DC-10, faced a far more difficult problem than Chesley Sullenberger - the DC-10 had lost an engine in a turbine failure that caused a complete loss of all hydraulics. Al Haynes had no flight controls and no engine controls, because they were hydraulically boosted.

He had nothing.

Yet he managed to find a way to control the airplane through manipulation of the thrust on the remaining engines via an access in the floor of the cockpit. The airplane was unflyable, and yet, through brilliant leadership and CRM, he managed to get it to Sioux City, Iowa. No one should've survived. But many did. Sully could fly his airplane. He had flight controls. Al Haynes' accomplishment was far more impressive.

United 811 lost a cargo door on climbout, damaging the wing, the structure, and destroying both engines on that side. They flew the airplane back to Hawaii. It was a design flaw in the door, and the 747 wasn't designed to fly on just two engines, but this crew managed the multiple systems failures: pneumatic, hydraulic, flight control, and yes the loss of two engines to fly it back. They landed overweight, with partial flaps, and two engines out.

Because of great CRM.

So, while SWA and United are both in the top ten for safety world-wide, SWA has, until recently, operated in the benign, safe environment of the domestic US, with none of the challenges of long flights, poor ATC, international rules and navigation. It's simply not reasonable to compare safety records when one airline was operating as a pioneer, and one began its operations in the safe environment built by others.

The worrisome part of SWA right now is the trend. Scraping a wingtip is bad. But banging up airplanes consistently, with over-runs, taxi incursions, gear collapsing, all as the result of pilot error, is indicative of something troublesome underneath. It was only luck that many of those weren't fatal. One of them was fatal, not to a passenger, but to the kid in the minivan killed when they over-ran Midway.

The culture isn't focused on improvement, or even, really, on safety. It's relentlessly focused on one-time performance, (even though DAL was the best at on time last year, and UAL was second, by only 320 flights out of over 700,000...) and relentlessly on utilization (turn times and getting the jet back in the air) because those factors drive costs down and profits up.

Pilots at SWA joke about the "most dangerous spot on the airport is between me and my gate!" and wear their "cowboy" reputation as a badge of honor.

But it's a sign of trouble. It's a sign of a willingness to "bend the rules" to "get the job done". The revelation that SWA was not calculating weights accurately, or even correctly, for years, is indicative of a culture that is under pressure to perform, not a culture that rewards introspection, improvement, or safety. It worries me. It worries friends that I have at the airline. They know that they're watched for their performance. And they're worried, just a bit, that they will be taken to court if they try and resist the pressure, if they try and change the culture.

SWA is a good airline. But to compare it with a UAL, or DAL, is specious as the operating history is so different, the environments are so different.

But ask yourself this question: why is SWA management taking their mechanics to court? Is that a sign of a healthy culture? Is that a company that values its employees?

That values safety?

Would pilots that were focused on safety try to land in that severe wind THREE times? Those pilots were clearly focused on getting there....and that's my point. The pilots at SAW are under pressure to perform, not to keep it safe...

I would've tried landing there, too. I probably would've tried twice. But three times? That's a relentless focus on completion, not on a safe outcome.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_811
 
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Originally Posted by Astro14
The last fatality caused by pilot error at United was in 1978. In Portland. The ALPA and UAL response to that; Cockpit Resource Management, or CRM, has changed the industry for the better.

Is that the one where a gear light was malfunctioning. And they ended up flying a DC-8 out of gas, because no one in the cockpit wanted to tell the captain they were running out of fuel?
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Originally Posted by Astro14
The last fatality caused by pilot error at United was in 1978. In Portland. The ALPA and UAL response to that; Cockpit Resource Management, or CRM, has changed the industry for the better.

Is that the one where a gear light was malfunctioning. And they ended up flying a DC-8 out of gas, because no one in the cockpit wanted to tell the captain they were running out of fuel?


That's the one.

Human performance became the focus of United and ALPA efforts to improve safety, where before, we had focused on technical and mechanical issues.

There had been several crashes of perfectly good airplanes prior to this one.

Famously, Eastern 401, just as an example.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401

But until United 173, everyone rationalized or ignored crew performance. No one addressed it. They didn't want to see the truth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_173

It's also interesting that there were only 10 fatalities (8 passengers) in the crash. Lack of fuel meant no post crash fire...

In 1990, Avianca 52 ran out of fuel flying to JFK. Same exact issue as United 173. Avianca wasn't teaching CRM at the time...
 
Astro,

It's hard to comprehend an atmosphere in a cockpit, where the Captain is so "Godlike", his fellow pilots would risk a crash, rather than tell him they're about to flame out.
 
Originally Posted by billt460
Astro,

It's hard to comprehend an atmosphere in a cockpit, where the Captain is so "Godlike", his fellow pilots would risk a crash, rather than tell him they're about to flame out.


That's a bit of an oversimplification... Human interactions are complex. This crew's failures derive from their failure to prioritize, to clearly assign tasks and roles, and frankly, to keep an eye on the airplane itself while everyone focused on the landing gear indication, which, incidentally, is exactly what happened in the cockpit of Eastern 401.

There are some clear cases of real autocrats and a cockpit climate so hostile and corrosive, that the FOs let the captain crash rather than engage in a discussion...this one wasn't quite that clear...but...it was close...

The Captain sets the tone. Creates the climate in which the crew performs. Guys did this badly, or they did this well, based on instinct and personality prior to CRM. CRM training developed the Captains as leaders, and gave Captains and crew members tools with which to help in task prioritization, conflict resolution. and resource management. Again, Al Haynes, who never forgave himself for the people that died in Sioux City, was a brilliant practitioner of CRM. He flew the unflyable airplane. To this day, NASA is researching to see if there is a reliable way to use limited propulsion to manage flight path int eh absence of flight controls.

They have yet to succeed.

As an example of the investment we, United, made in CRM: in 1998, I was sent to Denver for CRM training. Three days of immersion. 14 hours/day. Same hotel, eat, train, work with the same folks for some very long days. No cell phones. Training, and exercises, helped us all understand the value of CRM, provide us some tools, and teach us about ourselves. Not all of that learning was pleasant, as some of us discovered things about our personality that we hadn't realized. To be confronted with that isn't always easy.

But more to the point: United spent millions training/educating us. 3 days of pay and expenses across 10,000 pilots was expensive.

Money that no other airline spent.

Investing in the human performance of its crews to drive safety.

I carry those lessons with me to this day.

When I upgraded to Captain, I spent 5 days in Chicago (again, big money: pay and expenses for 5 days for an airline captain) and much of that was spent on CRM, personality assessment, and leadership. It was great training.

It's an investment in human capital, as well as safety.
 
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Incidentally, the Burbank accident in 2000 (high/fast approach clearance, unbelievably fast landing, over-run and crash) had elements of CRM. Both knew the limitations: 15 knots fast, on glideslope, landing flaps selected, but neither said anything.

They flared at 195 knots, flaps 30, touched down halfway down the runway (which was short) at flaps 30 (not landing flaps of 40) at 182 knots, which was more than 20 knots over the flap limit speed for 40 and nearly 50 knots above the planned landing speed.

The failure of either pilot to speak up when both knew that they were egregiously beyond safe limits is a CRM matter. Was it cockpit climate? Was it a culture of "mission completion" over safety?

I can't tell you.

But I can tell you that something in that cockpit inhibited both pilots, both trained by the USAF, both with good reputations and training records, from speaking up about a terrible approach gone wrong.

It was a CRM failure.

I'll bet folding money that the wingtip scrape in Bradley was CRM as well.

That scrape concerns me, as a member of a profession in which we are peers. This is the Burbank crew, except with a different outcome, the result of luck, frankly. The pressure to "get there" overwhelmed good decision-making.


https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAB0204.pdf
 
Regarding the conditions of airplanes reminded me of my travels a fair ways back. I traveled to Japan out of Seattle a number of times and in those days it was on Northwest Orient. A beautiful 747 with one exception, the center overhead bins would start to rattle and shake as soon as we got up to speed on the runway and you would hear that noise all the way to Tokyo. Service was fine and the flights always made it.

That must have been one well used 747. Years later after Northwest dropped the Orient in their name I flew them again, this time to Seoul. Wouldn't you know it, it was that same 747 and the overheads shook and rattled away for those 9-10 hours. Fortunately earplugs saved the day.


The newer planes of today are much more quiet, thank God.
 
Astro - thank you for your contributions on this topic. I can tell you that the winds at our house last Monday - the day of the wingtip strike - were the highest in memory. Both in terms or gusts and sustained base winds. Our automatic back up generator started three times. I was set drive to Cincinnati on Monday but postponed a day not wanting to deal with the winds on I 80.

Thanks again for your thoughtful contributions to this site.

Sam
 
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