Actually, I suppose you're right, guess I just think of Hyundai as the leading/prime force in that merger. And, as opposed to sharing platforms, the 2.0T GDI engine seems revolutionary to me. But, they are now the same company, so point taken.
Sonata Turbo
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The theory might be that you won't use the 274 horsepower often or for long durations in a sonata.
In the cruze, you will using it's full potential frequently.
In the cruze, you will using it's full potential frequently.
Here is another 2.0T review:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2010/10/20/first-drive-2011-hyundai-sonata-2-0t.htm
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2010/10/20/first-drive-2011-hyundai-sonata-2-0t.htm
I have to question the comment about the engine is going to be unreliable because it produces 140HP/L this is nothing for modern motorcycle engines in the 1 ltr class and they stay together for well over 100k even when revved to the sky daily.
I'm sure the engine has got a solid bottom end and is built to take the loads.
Hyundai has been one of the worlds largest ship diesel engines for decades so i guess they know what it takes to make an engine last.
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But again, a sonata in any form isnt going to confuse somebody looking for a true sports or sporty car.
Neither will a entry level BMW 1 series.
I'm sure the engine has got a solid bottom end and is built to take the loads.
Hyundai has been one of the worlds largest ship diesel engines for decades so i guess they know what it takes to make an engine last.
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But again, a sonata in any form isnt going to confuse somebody looking for a true sports or sporty car.
Neither will a entry level BMW 1 series.
There are some significant differences between motorcycle engines in modern sportbikes and the Hyundai 4 banger with turbo!
But there is rarely a problem anymore with all the electronic nannies pulling timing and changing the A/F ratio in modern motors.
I'm like you, I think Hyundai has probably done adequate durability testing. But here's always the uniquely abusive driver to contend with. That's where Turbo cars have a hard time.
But there is rarely a problem anymore with all the electronic nannies pulling timing and changing the A/F ratio in modern motors.
I'm like you, I think Hyundai has probably done adequate durability testing. But here's always the uniquely abusive driver to contend with. That's where Turbo cars have a hard time.
Originally Posted By: Ursae_Majoris
Here is another 2.0T review:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2010/10/20/first-drive-2011-hyundai-sonata-2-0t.htm
Thanks for posting. Looks like his two biggest negatives were not as good mpg as the normally aspirated engine and not as quiet/big as a six.
I would give up a little mpg (not sure what the difference is) to gain ~75hp. As for needing a six, as long as the 4 is smooth and not excessively noisy, two less cylinders wouldn't matter to me. And then there's the point he left out about better mpg with the four as opposed to a six.
I think the long term reliability of the new 2.0T may be the biggest question mark at this point.
Here is another 2.0T review:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/2010/10/20/first-drive-2011-hyundai-sonata-2-0t.htm
Thanks for posting. Looks like his two biggest negatives were not as good mpg as the normally aspirated engine and not as quiet/big as a six.
I would give up a little mpg (not sure what the difference is) to gain ~75hp. As for needing a six, as long as the 4 is smooth and not excessively noisy, two less cylinders wouldn't matter to me. And then there's the point he left out about better mpg with the four as opposed to a six.
I think the long term reliability of the new 2.0T may be the biggest question mark at this point.
Not sure if this has been posted but this is Motor Trend's First Test 2.0T with video.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1010_2011_hyundai_sonata_2_0t_test/index.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1010_2011_hyundai_sonata_2_0t_test/index.html
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Trav
I have to question the comment about the engine is going to be unreliable because it produces 140HP/L this is nothing for modern motorcycle engines in the 1 ltr class and they stay together for well over 100k even when revved to the sky daily.
I'm sure the engine has got a solid bottom end and is built to take the loads.
Hyundai has been one of the worlds largest ship diesel engines for decades so i guess they know what it takes to make an engine last.
Quote:
But again, a sonata in any form isnt going to confuse somebody looking for a true sports or sporty car.
Neither will a entry level BMW 1 series.
As an ASE certified tech you should know that time at temp is the determinant for longevity and degradation, especially with turbomachinery. It's really pretty easy, that much power and power density means more stresses and a 4cyl has fewer parts bearing those stresses... Plus the turbo has to be moving a LOT of aid to make that power - stoichiometry doesn't lie...
And a Hyundai engine isn't a motorcycle engine - sorry.
What's with the cheapshot at the BMW? I wasn't making any claims, why bring it in? Can't come up with a viable argument on point? Good thing mine isn't an entry level unit... And last I checked, getting 30 MPG out of a 300hp car is doable... I do it in mine, no reason a sonata can't do it... But it doesn't mean that there aren't valid concerns about the far from the ordinary power density in such an application.
I have to question the comment about the engine is going to be unreliable because it produces 140HP/L this is nothing for modern motorcycle engines in the 1 ltr class and they stay together for well over 100k even when revved to the sky daily.
I'm sure the engine has got a solid bottom end and is built to take the loads.
Hyundai has been one of the worlds largest ship diesel engines for decades so i guess they know what it takes to make an engine last.
Quote:
But again, a sonata in any form isnt going to confuse somebody looking for a true sports or sporty car.
Neither will a entry level BMW 1 series.
As an ASE certified tech you should know that time at temp is the determinant for longevity and degradation, especially with turbomachinery. It's really pretty easy, that much power and power density means more stresses and a 4cyl has fewer parts bearing those stresses... Plus the turbo has to be moving a LOT of aid to make that power - stoichiometry doesn't lie...
And a Hyundai engine isn't a motorcycle engine - sorry.
What's with the cheapshot at the BMW? I wasn't making any claims, why bring it in? Can't come up with a viable argument on point? Good thing mine isn't an entry level unit... And last I checked, getting 30 MPG out of a 300hp car is doable... I do it in mine, no reason a sonata can't do it... But it doesn't mean that there aren't valid concerns about the far from the ordinary power density in such an application.
People were reliably pushing 300 hp in 90's era Hyundai Beta 2-liter fours for years. The highest numbers on a stock bottom end were ~350 hp, daily driven. And that was double the 140 hp that engine left the factory with. And that was an engine never meant to see boost. A purpose designed turbo engine should be fine.
JHZR2
Staff member
quantify "reliably"... Joe user going to jiffy lube once in a blue moon for PM, or someone who made it their project and changed the oil like a BITOGer?
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And a Hyundai engine isn't a motorcycle engine - sorry.
True but it still has all the same components as an automobile engine. The point is a gasoline engine with 1 ltr can easily make 142 hp and be reliable whether its in a frame or under the hood.
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It's really pretty easy, that much power and power density means more stresses and a 4cyl has fewer parts bearing those stresses...
If the 4 cyl has 5 main bearings and a tough bottom end why would it have less strength than a V6 turbo like the ones used in the new Fords?
Turbo units have been used for decades reliably in 4cyl automotive engines for many hundreds of thousand of miles.
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What's with the cheap shot at the BMW?
No cheap shot at BMW, you said…
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Completely different vehicle, designed for completely different use. Nobody NEEDS a 135i, and you could argue that nobody needs a 118, or whatever the least potent version is... But most everybody needs a reasonable costing, good mileage, long lasting family sedan.
The 135i 5 door cars are reasonable costing, good mileage, long lasting family cars.
How is that different than the Sonata’s mission? It sure won’t get any customers looking for a sporty/sports car. The Sonata looks like a real lower cost alternative to these models.
Granted the 5 door at this time is a Euro model but it has been spotted here in the U.S.
And a Hyundai engine isn't a motorcycle engine - sorry.
True but it still has all the same components as an automobile engine. The point is a gasoline engine with 1 ltr can easily make 142 hp and be reliable whether its in a frame or under the hood.
Quote:
It's really pretty easy, that much power and power density means more stresses and a 4cyl has fewer parts bearing those stresses...
If the 4 cyl has 5 main bearings and a tough bottom end why would it have less strength than a V6 turbo like the ones used in the new Fords?
Turbo units have been used for decades reliably in 4cyl automotive engines for many hundreds of thousand of miles.
Quote:
What's with the cheap shot at the BMW?
No cheap shot at BMW, you said…
Quote:
Completely different vehicle, designed for completely different use. Nobody NEEDS a 135i, and you could argue that nobody needs a 118, or whatever the least potent version is... But most everybody needs a reasonable costing, good mileage, long lasting family sedan.
The 135i 5 door cars are reasonable costing, good mileage, long lasting family cars.
How is that different than the Sonata’s mission? It sure won’t get any customers looking for a sporty/sports car. The Sonata looks like a real lower cost alternative to these models.
Granted the 5 door at this time is a Euro model but it has been spotted here in the U.S.
Originally Posted By: Trav
True but it still has all the same components as an automobile engine. The point is a gasoline engine with 1 ltr can easily make 142 hp and be reliable whether its in a frame or under the hood.
Wouldn't you have to consider the load differences though? That 1 liter motorcycle engine only has haul about 400-500 lbs + the weight of the driver. Put that same 142 hp engine in a car and it'll have to haul 3000 lbs + the weight of the passengers. Wouldn't that shorten its longevity/reliability?
True but it still has all the same components as an automobile engine. The point is a gasoline engine with 1 ltr can easily make 142 hp and be reliable whether its in a frame or under the hood.
Wouldn't you have to consider the load differences though? That 1 liter motorcycle engine only has haul about 400-500 lbs + the weight of the driver. Put that same 142 hp engine in a car and it'll have to haul 3000 lbs + the weight of the passengers. Wouldn't that shorten its longevity/reliability?
Yes thats true enough.Both engines make power diffently,the bike engine is likely to be very short stroke and larger bore.
This short stroke bike engine would not work well in a mid size car.
Still with correct gearing in a small car bike enines work pretty well.
My basic premise is this..
A water cooled 4 cycle 4 or 6 cylinder bike engine is not so much different from a car engine.Sure the bore and stroke maybe different and the unit shares its oil with the transmission (so did the original mini) but the cyclinder head and block can both have 2 or 4 valves per cylinder,both can be fuel injected with an ECM,
both can use a timing chain or belt with tensioner,pressurised oiling system,waterpump,etc,etc.
Some Honda flat 6 engines are very close to automotive use specs.
1,832cc, Liquid-cooled 4-stroke 12-valve SOHC flat-6 engine, 74 x 71mm bore and stroke, 9.8: 1 compression ratio, combined with PGM-FI electronic fuel injection with automatic choke and 5-speed including overdrive.
Here are a few examples of cars powered by a mororcycle engine.Novel for sure but interesting performance.
http://thekneeslider.com/motorcycle-powered-cars/
http://www.smartuki.com/
This short stroke bike engine would not work well in a mid size car.
Still with correct gearing in a small car bike enines work pretty well.
My basic premise is this..
A water cooled 4 cycle 4 or 6 cylinder bike engine is not so much different from a car engine.Sure the bore and stroke maybe different and the unit shares its oil with the transmission (so did the original mini) but the cyclinder head and block can both have 2 or 4 valves per cylinder,both can be fuel injected with an ECM,
both can use a timing chain or belt with tensioner,pressurised oiling system,waterpump,etc,etc.
Some Honda flat 6 engines are very close to automotive use specs.
1,832cc, Liquid-cooled 4-stroke 12-valve SOHC flat-6 engine, 74 x 71mm bore and stroke, 9.8: 1 compression ratio, combined with PGM-FI electronic fuel injection with automatic choke and 5-speed including overdrive.
Here are a few examples of cars powered by a mororcycle engine.Novel for sure but interesting performance.
http://thekneeslider.com/motorcycle-powered-cars/
http://www.smartuki.com/
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Originally Posted By: sciphi
People were reliably pushing 300 hp in 90's era Hyundai Beta 2-liter fours for years. The highest numbers on a stock bottom end were ~350 hp, daily driven. And that was double the 140 hp that engine left the factory with. And that was an engine never meant to see boost. A purpose designed turbo engine should be fine.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
quantify "reliably"... Joe user going to jiffy lube once in a blue moon for PM, or someone who made it their project and changed the oil like a BITOGer?
The latter. Definite project car. There were some for whom the project happened to be their daily driver, so they made sure it wasn't breaking down every week.
People were reliably pushing 300 hp in 90's era Hyundai Beta 2-liter fours for years. The highest numbers on a stock bottom end were ~350 hp, daily driven. And that was double the 140 hp that engine left the factory with. And that was an engine never meant to see boost. A purpose designed turbo engine should be fine.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
quantify "reliably"... Joe user going to jiffy lube once in a blue moon for PM, or someone who made it their project and changed the oil like a BITOGer?
The latter. Definite project car. There were some for whom the project happened to be their daily driver, so they made sure it wasn't breaking down every week.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Trav
True but it still has all the same components as an automobile engine. The point is a gasoline engine with 1 ltr can easily make 142 hp and be reliable whether its in a frame or under the hood.
If the 4 cyl has 5 main bearings and a tough bottom end why would it have less strength than a V6 turbo like the ones used in the new Fords?
Turbo units have been used for decades reliably in 4cyl automotive engines for many hundreds of thousand of miles.
Dont disagree that turbo engines have been used for a long time reliably. My MB diesels are the epitome of longevity in a passenger car.
But the MC vs car thing still isn't quite right. You need to think of the average load over the lifecycle. It takes 10 hp to propel a 600# motorcycle 60 MPH, while it takes 60hp to propel a 3500# car. (http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepower/horsepower_equation_trap_speed_method_horsepower.php)
So the motorcycle is loaded at 7% while the Sonata is loaded at 21%. Which is going to have a higher time at temperature? Which one is going to see more stresses. It is just a matter of physics of the required load for steady state operation, let alone acceleration, hills, etc.
Couple to that two things - making 274hp from 2L means you need a LOT of boost, and, we have sludging and operational issues with cars that are far less power dense, and I still see the potential for reliability concerns, especially when the hyundai owner puts cheap oil in, does not change it often enough, etc.
There can't be too extreme marvels of engineering here... We are still dealing with physics, and I can't see a compelling reason why this engine and setup has less potential to be problemmatic than any other engine setup, including countless NA engines making far less power in far bigger packages.
True but it still has all the same components as an automobile engine. The point is a gasoline engine with 1 ltr can easily make 142 hp and be reliable whether its in a frame or under the hood.
If the 4 cyl has 5 main bearings and a tough bottom end why would it have less strength than a V6 turbo like the ones used in the new Fords?
Turbo units have been used for decades reliably in 4cyl automotive engines for many hundreds of thousand of miles.
Dont disagree that turbo engines have been used for a long time reliably. My MB diesels are the epitome of longevity in a passenger car.
But the MC vs car thing still isn't quite right. You need to think of the average load over the lifecycle. It takes 10 hp to propel a 600# motorcycle 60 MPH, while it takes 60hp to propel a 3500# car. (http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepower/horsepower_equation_trap_speed_method_horsepower.php)
So the motorcycle is loaded at 7% while the Sonata is loaded at 21%. Which is going to have a higher time at temperature? Which one is going to see more stresses. It is just a matter of physics of the required load for steady state operation, let alone acceleration, hills, etc.
Couple to that two things - making 274hp from 2L means you need a LOT of boost, and, we have sludging and operational issues with cars that are far less power dense, and I still see the potential for reliability concerns, especially when the hyundai owner puts cheap oil in, does not change it often enough, etc.
There can't be too extreme marvels of engineering here... We are still dealing with physics, and I can't see a compelling reason why this engine and setup has less potential to be problemmatic than any other engine setup, including countless NA engines making far less power in far bigger packages.
I agree 100% that the stresses will be far greater but i think engine materials and oil technology are up to the job.
The VW Golf R: 2.0 Turbo, 270 HP, AWD are holding up well in Germany even when subjected to full throttle autobahn hours.
I think lubrication will be the key to long engine life.
The VW Golf R: 2.0 Turbo, 270 HP, AWD are holding up well in Germany even when subjected to full throttle autobahn hours.
I think lubrication will be the key to long engine life.
ls1mike
$50 Site Donor 2026
I don't do imports, I don't mind recommending one to folks they just are not for me, but I have to say I really like how the new Sonata looks. I have seen a few in person now and had to do a double take. I think the styling is tasteful.
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