" Some Group III base oils outperform POA based Group IV"

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Pennzoil website states that "Synthetics made from Group III oil can, in some cases, outperform those made in Group IV oils in some areas". Do you guys agree with this? If so which Group III oil is known to outperform Group IV oils?
 
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I'm sure that's true in some aspects, but the way that's written sounds like some marketing. Like maybe a Cessna 152 is better than an F-15 in some areas. Like landing on a grass runway or the fact I can afford one. But that doesn't really tell the story, does it? So it really doesn't mean much without specifics.

You'd have to lay it all out and see just where it might be superior, then one could make an informed decision as to whether it makes sense for their application. I like the typically low pour point and high flash point of the oils I use with PAO in the base. I also like that some of those oils could go for extended drains if I ever found myself in a situation that required it. My personal thing is liking a wide margin between my actual needs and the oil's capabilities. I'm 100% certain there are many group III oils that would completely satisfy my engines' needs given the driving profiles. But there are needs and there are wants. I go for what I want, most of the time. Except when I find a clearance deal too hard to pass up, like RGT a couple years ago, which has performed very well in my engines. But my preferred oil is M1 EP.

So areas where GIII might outperform? Well, it can be on price. QSUD, Supertech full syn, and some others can be had for a steal at times but still perform very well. I've seen some Group III's show pretty high flash points after 5k or so miles, so clearly there is some capability there to be competitive given the driving variables of that particular OCI. The best UOA I've had in my 2018 3.6 in terms of wear metals came from Shell RGT (SN+) from my old clearance stash after about a 5k run. That was impressive.
 

OVERKILL

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Pennzoil website states that "Synthetics made from Group III oil can, in some cases, outperform those made in Group IV oils in some areas". Do you guys agree with this? If so which Group III oil is known to outperform Group IV oils?
It's the language.

Yes, synthetics made with Group III, absolutely can outperform some blended with PAO. The implication is that this is the result of the base oil, but note that they are referring to fully formulated lubricants, not base oils.

PAO presents some blending challenges. It also has unrivalled cold temperature performance, and, when contrasted to Group III, better oxidation resistance.

HOWEVER

Oxidation resistance can be improved via additives. Pour Point Depressants can improve cold temperature performance, but not to a level achievable with PAO.

So, it comes down to how an oil is blended and the performance of the additive package. This is far more important than whether the oil is based on Group III, PAO, or both.
 

Jackson_Slugger

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I think they're arguing that GTL can be on par with GIV and I think the front page basically states that GTL, while considered GIII, could be a V or VI but isn't for technical reasons...
 
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I think they're arguing that GTL can be on par with GIV and I think the front page basically states that GTL, while considered GIII, could be a V or VI but isn't for technical reasons...
Which if true is really silly if you know how the Group designations are defined and why they are defined that way. Manufacturing processes have nothing to do with them and Annex E even states this in the text. It's all about chemical composition, viscosity index and levels of impurities.

Can you link to the exact page that infers this? I was looking around but I didn't see it.
 
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Pennzoil website states that "Synthetics made from Group III oil can, in some cases, outperform those made in Group IV oils in some areas". Do you guys agree with this? If so which Group III oil is known to outperform Group IV oils?

I agreed with everything Pennzoil stated until I started using Mobil 1

Advertising to get you to buy there product, since maybe all of Pennzoil synthetic oils are Group III
 

OVERKILL

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I think they're arguing that GTL can be on par with GIV and I think the front page basically states that GTL, while considered GIII, could be a V or VI but isn't for technical reasons...
I don't think so.

They appear to be arguing that a finished product, blended using Group III, can, in some instances and in some areas, out-perform one blended with PAO. Since most of the oil's performance is dictated by the additive package, that's an accurate statement.

And no, as @kschachn noted, GTL is a hydrocracked base oil, which is what makes it Group III. The feedstock is what makes it different, and the Fischer-Tropsch derived feedstock is less waxy, which is what improves the cold temperature performance (amongst other things).
 
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Guess you have to address the negative aspects of PAO. Cost, less slick and higher resistance to solvent additives.
 
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When marketing goes too far:


"PurePlus™ Base Oil is found in many custom Pennzoil racing oils. Pennzoil Ultra Platinum Full Synthetic motor oil with PurePlus™ Technology 0W-40 motor oil is the exact same oil that Team Penske uses right-out-of-the-bottle in the Verizon IndyCar Series." - I find this statement about PUP 0W-40 hard to believe.

Rotella Gas Truck is was a non-extended PCMO not-intended for high-performance applications:



I guess when you pay for advertising, you (not always) get sales:


Disclaimers:
  • I consider this thread to be mainly focused on marketing. As such, I hope that no one here is offended by my post.
  • I don't have anything against Group III motor oils. In fact, Group III oils have a better additive response and are less expensive to formulate, while offering similar performance levels to more expensive Group IV/V motor oils.
  • Some Group III+ base oils are more expensive than PAO these days.
  • The more ridiculous the advertising and performance claims, the more likely it is that the manufacturer is trying to sell an average product.
  • Good products should be able to stand on their own merits without the need for expensive and elaborate marketing campaigns.
  • As far as I know, and like @OVERKILL mentioned, nothing rivals the cold flow characteristics of PAO.
  • When in doubt, buy Mobil 1. Before I got into lubricants, Mobil 1 was my go-to motor oil. To this day I still use Mobil 1 in most of my family's vehicles. There is nothing wrong with other brands, however, as @OVERKILL and I discussed, Mobil 1 still prioritizes performance over cost. And I appreciate that.
 
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  • As far as I know, and like @OVERKILL mentioned, nothing rivals the cold flow characteristics of PAO.
  • When in doubt, buy Mobil 1. Before I got into lubricants, Mobil 1 was my go-to motor oil. To this day I still use Mobil 1 in most of my family's vehicles. There is nothing wrong with other brands, however, as @OVERKILL and I discussed, Mobil 1 still prioritizes performance over cost. And I appreciate that.


Does all M1 contain PAO? I think not or at least not in the amount one might think.
 
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Does all M1 contain PAO? I think not or at least not in the amount one might think.
No, it doesn't. Mobil is embracing GTL. However, it likes to mix it with PAO, ANs, and some Esters. They might have some of the most diverse formulations on the market today.
 
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I remember when Chevron introduced IsoSyn as a gateway to GIII and they said Delo 400 with the new base oils can rival synthetic performance. IsoSyn was the name for their dewaxing process. Chevron doesn’t seem like they are advertising IsoSyn outside of Delo but not shocked if Havoline Lifelong or Pro-DS is based off that same base oil.
 
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the exact same oil that Team Penske uses right-out-of-the-bottle in the Verizon IndyCar Series."

Back in the "old days", USAC actually used to monitor stuff like this at the track. I'm not sure if anybody does anymore.
Then again, is it one quart of the production stuff in a 16 quart system with 15 quarts of magic lube? Of maybe this application for 500 miles isn't really that big a deal anyway. Indycar engines are pretty limited these days on specs (rpm, boost, etc) and blown engines are very rare now.
 
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