Trav, you really do understand the car biz.
The bean counters RULE it. Even a penny or two a unit is big money at the end of the year.
The bean counters RULE it. Even a penny or two a unit is big money at the end of the year.
Some car makers say NO antiseize on spark plugs?
- Thread starter Vizzy
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Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: willix
I don't understand what relationship miles driven has to do with aluminum threads galling.
If you've ever studied diffusion of metals at the graduate level you'd appreciate what can happen to metals. Like Shannow said, time and temperature affect metal interfaces. They tend to bond.
I can't pretend that I have any authority on the science of all this. I shurely know working on trucks and cars that frequent street chemicals in Minnesota. In fact I work on the trucks that spread these chemicals on the city streets 6 days a week and use antisieze on everything that I know is going to fail or wear out daily,weekly, monthly, yearly, that includes especially under carriage & brake components. I do know many metals have a corrosion issue when in contact with aluminum throw some road salt or potassium chloride at it and it can be devastating. Sparkplugs don't get the harsh environment but they are a large fine thread & hollow making them vulnerable to breaking with each thread root being a weak point.
Originally Posted By: willix
I don't understand what relationship miles driven has to do with aluminum threads galling.
If you've ever studied diffusion of metals at the graduate level you'd appreciate what can happen to metals. Like Shannow said, time and temperature affect metal interfaces. They tend to bond.
I can't pretend that I have any authority on the science of all this. I shurely know working on trucks and cars that frequent street chemicals in Minnesota. In fact I work on the trucks that spread these chemicals on the city streets 6 days a week and use antisieze on everything that I know is going to fail or wear out daily,weekly, monthly, yearly, that includes especially under carriage & brake components. I do know many metals have a corrosion issue when in contact with aluminum throw some road salt or potassium chloride at it and it can be devastating. Sparkplugs don't get the harsh environment but they are a large fine thread & hollow making them vulnerable to breaking with each thread root being a weak point.
Spark plugs are usually coated or plated on the threads.
The issues are addressed in this way from manufacturers.
But not only is the cost of the antiseize substance involved, but the labor or machine costs to put it on properly.
One false move, and the plug is fouled.
The issues are addressed in this way from manufacturers.
But not only is the cost of the antiseize substance involved, but the labor or machine costs to put it on properly.
One false move, and the plug is fouled.
http://www.ngkplugpro.ca/content/contentfiles/pdf/NGKSP-0907-1R-Anti-SeizeonSparkPlugs.pdf
NGK says not to use it. See the tech bulletin above.
NGK says not to use it. See the tech bulletin above.
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
NGK says not to use it
purely due to the risk of over-torquing, an issue most of us can deal with.
NGK says not to use it
purely due to the risk of over-torquing, an issue most of us can deal with.
The pics at the bottom of the page says it all to me.
As Kiwi points out this is only a torque issue as far as NGK is concerned.Reducing the applied torque is as simple as using a small torque wrench and reducing the dry spec.
As Kiwi points out this is only a torque issue as far as NGK is concerned.Reducing the applied torque is as simple as using a small torque wrench and reducing the dry spec.
Great info in this thread. One topic not yet covered: at what temp. do the plugs come out easiest. Hot or Cold ?? it has been my practice to let the engine come up to operating temp, turn it off, then wait approx. 10 mins. then remove the plugs. This applys to alum. heads. I have read elsewhere to remove them cold.(Can't remember source )Any added thoughts on this??-- Oldtommy
I don't think it makes any meaningful difference... and I prefer to work on a cold engine simply because I don't like getting burned.
But considering aluminum's higher thermal expansion rate (vs. that of steel), I guess the threads would theoretically be looser with a hot engine.
But considering aluminum's higher thermal expansion rate (vs. that of steel), I guess the threads would theoretically be looser with a hot engine.
Originally Posted By: SubLGT
http://www.ngkplugpro.ca/content/contentfiles/pdf/NGKSP-0907-1R-Anti-SeizeonSparkPlugs.pdf
NGK says not to use it. See the tech bulletin above.
That bulletin says not to use antiseize on plated plugs. But it says that you should use it on plugs that are not plated.
Personally, I use it on all of them. Several times I've seen damaged threads that WOULD have been prevented by the application of antiseize. But I've NEVER seen antiseize cause a problem with a spark plug. YMMV.
http://www.ngkplugpro.ca/content/contentfiles/pdf/NGKSP-0907-1R-Anti-SeizeonSparkPlugs.pdf
NGK says not to use it. See the tech bulletin above.
That bulletin says not to use antiseize on plated plugs. But it says that you should use it on plugs that are not plated.
Personally, I use it on all of them. Several times I've seen damaged threads that WOULD have been prevented by the application of antiseize. But I've NEVER seen antiseize cause a problem with a spark plug. YMMV.
If the heads are warmed up the threads in the head expand more than the steel plug base allowing more clearance. The aluminum is also softened and galling may be more of a factor hot. I'v done cold & hot with out any catastrophic issues lubed or not.
I have only removed one busted plug and it appeared to have blown out the whole porcelain out and the electrode was busted off hoping that event happend after it blew out. The complete lug was there and it came out as usual.
I don't understand how one would over TQ a plug if you seat it +1/8 turn bevel seal or w/crush gasket-seat it +3/4 turn. I sure the thread flank mates nicely & removal w/ease.
I have never TQed a plug and never damaged a thread. These measurements would be better done on a cool head.
I have only removed one busted plug and it appeared to have blown out the whole porcelain out and the electrode was busted off hoping that event happend after it blew out. The complete lug was there and it came out as usual.
I don't understand how one would over TQ a plug if you seat it +1/8 turn bevel seal or w/crush gasket-seat it +3/4 turn. I sure the thread flank mates nicely & removal w/ease.
I have never TQed a plug and never damaged a thread. These measurements would be better done on a cool head.
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does not hurt to use a tiny bit. i use about 1/2 of what atikovi puts per plug
Originally Posted By: calvinnnnnnnnn
does not hurt to use a tiny bit. i use about 1/2 of what atikovi puts per plug
Permatex 133K
does not hurt to use a tiny bit. i use about 1/2 of what atikovi puts per plug
Permatex 133K
Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
Great info in this thread. One topic not yet covered: at what temp. do the plugs come out easiest. Hot or Cold ?? it has been my practice to let the engine come up to operating temp, turn it off, then wait approx. 10 mins. then remove the plugs. This applys to alum. heads. I have read elsewhere to remove them cold.(Can't remember source )Any added thoughts on this??-- Oldtommy
Everything I've read says cold. An oldtimer once told me about stubborn cases to tighten a plug just a smidge, before removing it.
Great info in this thread. One topic not yet covered: at what temp. do the plugs come out easiest. Hot or Cold ?? it has been my practice to let the engine come up to operating temp, turn it off, then wait approx. 10 mins. then remove the plugs. This applys to alum. heads. I have read elsewhere to remove them cold.(Can't remember source )Any added thoughts on this??-- Oldtommy
Everything I've read says cold. An oldtimer once told me about stubborn cases to tighten a plug just a smidge, before removing it.
Originally Posted By: paulo57509
I've been using this stuff for the past four or five years. It's a runny liquid carrier with graphite (?) in suspension. I didn't know there was an anti-seize specifically made for spark plugs.
I found it after I ordered an Aircraft Spruce catalog when I was into fasteners.
I now use the paste stuff only for fasteners.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/antiseize.php
Loctite also recommends a graphite based lube for spark plugs, called Graphite-50. Good to 900 degF.
I've been using this stuff for the past four or five years. It's a runny liquid carrier with graphite (?) in suspension. I didn't know there was an anti-seize specifically made for spark plugs.
I found it after I ordered an Aircraft Spruce catalog when I was into fasteners.
I now use the paste stuff only for fasteners.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/antiseize.php
Loctite also recommends a graphite based lube for spark plugs, called Graphite-50. Good to 900 degF.
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Originally Posted By: atikovi
Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
Great info in this thread. One topic not yet covered: at what temp. do the plugs come out easiest. Hot or Cold ?? it has been my practice to let the engine come up to operating temp, turn it off, then wait approx. 10 mins. then remove the plugs. This applys to alum. heads. I have read elsewhere to remove them cold.(Can't remember source )Any added thoughts on this??-- Oldtommy
Everything I've read says cold. An oldtimer once told me about stubborn cases to tighten a plug just a smidge, before removing it.
FWIW, my owner's manual states not to pull plugs while hot or SERIOUS ENGINE DAMAGE MAY OCCUR.
Originally Posted By: 2oldtommy
Great info in this thread. One topic not yet covered: at what temp. do the plugs come out easiest. Hot or Cold ?? it has been my practice to let the engine come up to operating temp, turn it off, then wait approx. 10 mins. then remove the plugs. This applys to alum. heads. I have read elsewhere to remove them cold.(Can't remember source )Any added thoughts on this??-- Oldtommy
Everything I've read says cold. An oldtimer once told me about stubborn cases to tighten a plug just a smidge, before removing it.
FWIW, my owner's manual states not to pull plugs while hot or SERIOUS ENGINE DAMAGE MAY OCCUR.
Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Does anyone here know whether the Bosch plugs have a specially treated metal threaded surface designed to resist galling?
Yes, I took a Bosch plug and analyzed the different materials. The threads are plated with Nickel. I don't know if that is enough to resist galling. But any pure metal at the interface should help resist galling.
Does anyone here know whether the Bosch plugs have a specially treated metal threaded surface designed to resist galling?
Yes, I took a Bosch plug and analyzed the different materials. The threads are plated with Nickel. I don't know if that is enough to resist galling. But any pure metal at the interface should help resist galling.
For both personal and professional work, I've always used Antiseize, as all my tech friends do, including those that exclusively service Euro cars.
Plugs installed dry tend to seize, even from the factory, especially Champion brand (personal experience here). The threads have a rough finish and seem to "help" adhere to aluminum heads quite nicely. Bosch isn't as good as years past, with NGK and Denso having the best threads (my opinions). NGK makes OE plugs for Audi as found on a B5 A4 30V (personal car).
I have noticed that an excessive application of Antiseize does tend to pile up upon removal, years later. The tradeoff being it still moves, threads are lubed, but if forced could cause minor damage. It's better than the option, of no thread prep (soaking with a light oil and working them back and forth has so far succeded). I tend to lightly coat spark plug threads.
I always torque to spec and to feel, NEVER reducing torque due to the effects of lube. The "crush gasket" is called "crush" for a reason. Proper torque aids heat transfer and electrical conductivity. The crush gasket or V-seat I leave dry. If one was critical, it could be coated with dielectric grease, however the benefit is questionable. On a marine engine I would do it based on principle of preventing contamination/corrosion in an extreme environment. Plug boots are always coated with it.
The only problems I've seen were from plugs installed by DIY'ers (sometimes auto "techs", too) there were too loose. At my first full time auto job, the ONLY thing the owner tested me on was proper spark plug torque- I passed.
The looseness will damage the plugs and allow blow by, which damages the coil packs or plug boots. Usually the damage can be repaired with a heli-coil kit, but is challenging on a modern 4 valve alum head due to space constraints.
My seat of the pants estimate is that at least 8 of 10 cars that have replacement spark plugs are not correctly installed or torqued. Cars with Long Life plugs should be double checked as they tend to either stick or become loose. Additionally, 100K life plugs will usually seize into the heads before they wear out. One of the shops I worked at replaced them at 80K to be safe on cars and 60-75K on trucks that tend to wear plugs faster.
That's about all I think I know about plugs or have direct experience with-- for better or worse, as they say.
Hope it helps someone, somewhere, with a pesky plug problem, or to prevent one.
Plugs installed dry tend to seize, even from the factory, especially Champion brand (personal experience here). The threads have a rough finish and seem to "help" adhere to aluminum heads quite nicely. Bosch isn't as good as years past, with NGK and Denso having the best threads (my opinions). NGK makes OE plugs for Audi as found on a B5 A4 30V (personal car).
I have noticed that an excessive application of Antiseize does tend to pile up upon removal, years later. The tradeoff being it still moves, threads are lubed, but if forced could cause minor damage. It's better than the option, of no thread prep (soaking with a light oil and working them back and forth has so far succeded). I tend to lightly coat spark plug threads.
I always torque to spec and to feel, NEVER reducing torque due to the effects of lube. The "crush gasket" is called "crush" for a reason. Proper torque aids heat transfer and electrical conductivity. The crush gasket or V-seat I leave dry. If one was critical, it could be coated with dielectric grease, however the benefit is questionable. On a marine engine I would do it based on principle of preventing contamination/corrosion in an extreme environment. Plug boots are always coated with it.
The only problems I've seen were from plugs installed by DIY'ers (sometimes auto "techs", too) there were too loose. At my first full time auto job, the ONLY thing the owner tested me on was proper spark plug torque- I passed.
The looseness will damage the plugs and allow blow by, which damages the coil packs or plug boots. Usually the damage can be repaired with a heli-coil kit, but is challenging on a modern 4 valve alum head due to space constraints.
My seat of the pants estimate is that at least 8 of 10 cars that have replacement spark plugs are not correctly installed or torqued. Cars with Long Life plugs should be double checked as they tend to either stick or become loose. Additionally, 100K life plugs will usually seize into the heads before they wear out. One of the shops I worked at replaced them at 80K to be safe on cars and 60-75K on trucks that tend to wear plugs faster.
That's about all I think I know about plugs or have direct experience with-- for better or worse, as they say.
Hope it helps someone, somewhere, with a pesky plug problem, or to prevent one.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Does anyone here know whether the Bosch plugs have a specially treated metal threaded surface designed to resist galling?
Yes, I took a Bosch plug and analyzed the different materials. The threads are plated with Nickel. I don't know if that is enough to resist galling. But any pure metal at the interface should help resist galling.
Thanks Kestas..
I know that during my time researching plugs for my car and the like I did see some reference from a Bosch corporate auto parts site (I think the german one) that the threads ARE plated with nickle for resistance to seizing , but that was about a 5 or 6 yrs ago and I haven't been able locate something today indicating that fact.
Lots of good observations and tips in this thread. I'm glad I created it..This is one of those "small items" that gets lost in the bigger world of servicing cars..one that often times can cause HUGE headaches.
Originally Posted By: Vizzy
Does anyone here know whether the Bosch plugs have a specially treated metal threaded surface designed to resist galling?
Yes, I took a Bosch plug and analyzed the different materials. The threads are plated with Nickel. I don't know if that is enough to resist galling. But any pure metal at the interface should help resist galling.
Thanks Kestas..
I know that during my time researching plugs for my car and the like I did see some reference from a Bosch corporate auto parts site (I think the german one) that the threads ARE plated with nickle for resistance to seizing , but that was about a 5 or 6 yrs ago and I haven't been able locate something today indicating that fact.
Lots of good observations and tips in this thread. I'm glad I created it..This is one of those "small items" that gets lost in the bigger world of servicing cars..one that often times can cause HUGE headaches.
Definitely not to be used on BMW and Porsche. Plugs came out of my 9 yr old BMW without a problem and the NGK's went in as they came out of the box, torque wrench of course.
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