Solvents and oil leaks.
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Originally Posted By: Mystic
Class is in session everybody. Everybody take their seats. Professor Skyship is here to lecture us. Welcome Professor Skyship. The professor will now lecture us on advanced automobile maintenance.
So the Skyship Academy book cover I posted in another thread was on-topic?
Class is in session everybody. Everybody take their seats. Professor Skyship is here to lecture us. Welcome Professor Skyship. The professor will now lecture us on advanced automobile maintenance.
So the Skyship Academy book cover I posted in another thread was on-topic?
Yes, completely! Professor Skyship may well be the world's top authority on advanced automobile maintenance!
I will give you some advice if you attend one of his classes. Be sure to read the owner's manual! That will be on the tests. Something else on the tests-don't use oil supplements or drive around engine cleaners! Use only approved high quality motor oils. The professor is kind of iffy when it comes to idle only engine flushes. That will probably be a multiple guess question. Whether it is true or false sort of seems to depend on how the professor is feeling that day!
And by the way-that photograph of Skyship Academy was put on the wall near the door leading to the classroom!
I will give you some advice if you attend one of his classes. Be sure to read the owner's manual! That will be on the tests. Something else on the tests-don't use oil supplements or drive around engine cleaners! Use only approved high quality motor oils. The professor is kind of iffy when it comes to idle only engine flushes. That will probably be a multiple guess question. Whether it is true or false sort of seems to depend on how the professor is feeling that day!
And by the way-that photograph of Skyship Academy was put on the wall near the door leading to the classroom!
Originally Posted By: FoxS
If I remember correctly, skyship is a big advocate of full synthetic oils. He looks down on dino blends.
And if I remember correctly, skyship also recommends high mileage oils because the oil companies know the right mix of additives.
But now he is saying in his opening post that there is danger in using oils with high detergent content in engines with high consumption. But oils with high detergency are high mileage oils without exception and skyship also said "most full synthetics" will have high detergent levels.
But he closes the same opening post by saying "Engines with very high oil consumption .... changing to a major brand HM oil .... will help".
He's contradicted himself in a single opening post of a thread he started.
I wonder what would happen if you use a full synthetic high mileage oil? Will the engine blow up?
According to your opening post, that combo of full synthetic and high mileage oil has too much detergent right?
But in other posts you've advocated full syn exclusively and said the oil companies know what they are doing with their high mileage additive mixes.
I have not said in any post that synthetics are better than conventional oils over shortish OCI's except for engines subject to some extreme service issues like racing, in fact although I am using a G4 synthetic I might well change to a cheaper conventional.
High mileage oils do contain a lot of detergents, BUT they also contain seal conditioners and stop leaks, so they are a very good combination and will help get rid of sludge and reduce oil consumption in most cases. The oil companies do know how to mix the add packs for HM oils and it's unlikely that using one will cause the kind of problems that an additive with solvents or some of the full synthetics can cause with engines in poor condition.
There are a few high mileage HC synthetics, but they also contain enough seal conditioners and stop leak additives and they don't seem to be such aggressive cleaners as the G4 synthetics like Edge or M1.
If I remember correctly, skyship is a big advocate of full synthetic oils. He looks down on dino blends.
And if I remember correctly, skyship also recommends high mileage oils because the oil companies know the right mix of additives.
But now he is saying in his opening post that there is danger in using oils with high detergent content in engines with high consumption. But oils with high detergency are high mileage oils without exception and skyship also said "most full synthetics" will have high detergent levels.
But he closes the same opening post by saying "Engines with very high oil consumption .... changing to a major brand HM oil .... will help".
He's contradicted himself in a single opening post of a thread he started.
I wonder what would happen if you use a full synthetic high mileage oil? Will the engine blow up?
According to your opening post, that combo of full synthetic and high mileage oil has too much detergent right?
But in other posts you've advocated full syn exclusively and said the oil companies know what they are doing with their high mileage additive mixes.
I have not said in any post that synthetics are better than conventional oils over shortish OCI's except for engines subject to some extreme service issues like racing, in fact although I am using a G4 synthetic I might well change to a cheaper conventional.
High mileage oils do contain a lot of detergents, BUT they also contain seal conditioners and stop leaks, so they are a very good combination and will help get rid of sludge and reduce oil consumption in most cases. The oil companies do know how to mix the add packs for HM oils and it's unlikely that using one will cause the kind of problems that an additive with solvents or some of the full synthetics can cause with engines in poor condition.
There are a few high mileage HC synthetics, but they also contain enough seal conditioners and stop leak additives and they don't seem to be such aggressive cleaners as the G4 synthetics like Edge or M1.
Very sound advice, "IF IN DOUBT READ THE INSTRUCTIONS". I'm always amazed by how many problems are caused by both owners and garages not reading the handbook or maintenance manual, also folks fail to check oil finder sites to confirm which oil they should be using and base decisions more on advertising and gossip.
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All normal oils contain detergents, HM oils in particular.
The Castrol oil finder does not refer to their HM series, so you will have to choose a grade to match your own requirements in viscosity terms.
This is the list of Castrol HM oils:
HM oil series
The Mobil HM oils are also good, but I think Castrol has a better selection in terms of different grades.
The Castrol oil finder does not refer to their HM series, so you will have to choose a grade to match your own requirements in viscosity terms.
This is the list of Castrol HM oils:
HM oil series
The Mobil HM oils are also good, but I think Castrol has a better selection in terms of different grades.
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To anyone reading this thread and actually wants some useful info please read on. Ignore skunkship. He has absolutely no idea what he is talking about. He writes many opinions but lacks much data.
As far as additives go. What exactly is the problem attempting to be fixed. Oil consumption can be from alot of things,ring coking seems to be a large issue with some of today's engines. If that's the cause of the consumption auto-RX has helped some members here who's opinion I value,others had no results whatsoever.
Mmo seems to really help clean the insides of an engine,and kreen is a forum favourite for cleaning the innards.
If you have a gasket weeping issue I've used a product made by a company called liqui-moly. It's called motor oil saver and it worked for and has yet to come back. High mileage oils are also advertised yo help leaks.
I've used a few oil treatment additives and the only ones that benefited with a fuel savings was MOS2 and cera-tec,both made by liqui-moly.
To anyone reading this ignore skunkship,the guy who started this thread. There are countless products out there that may or may not solve a perceived problem. If there is something a member would like to try just start a thread and many of us here with EXPERIENCE will be happy to help you.
But I would ignore any post by skunkship(which I currently am) it's obvious he is a 16 year old child playing games in here with grown up,and perhaps it's time for his nap
As far as additives go. What exactly is the problem attempting to be fixed. Oil consumption can be from alot of things,ring coking seems to be a large issue with some of today's engines. If that's the cause of the consumption auto-RX has helped some members here who's opinion I value,others had no results whatsoever.
Mmo seems to really help clean the insides of an engine,and kreen is a forum favourite for cleaning the innards.
If you have a gasket weeping issue I've used a product made by a company called liqui-moly. It's called motor oil saver and it worked for and has yet to come back. High mileage oils are also advertised yo help leaks.
I've used a few oil treatment additives and the only ones that benefited with a fuel savings was MOS2 and cera-tec,both made by liqui-moly.
To anyone reading this ignore skunkship,the guy who started this thread. There are countless products out there that may or may not solve a perceived problem. If there is something a member would like to try just start a thread and many of us here with EXPERIENCE will be happy to help you.
But I would ignore any post by skunkship(which I currently am) it's obvious he is a 16 year old child playing games in here with grown up,and perhaps it's time for his nap
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
That depends."
If the consumption is from dried/cracked/gone 'umbrella' valve stem seals, then a solvent really won't matter.
If its leakage from gaskets- I agree with you.
If its consumption past rings due to wear, then nothing will matter either way.
If, however, its consumption due to stuck oil control rings, then a massive dose of solvents that will free the stuck oil control rings can also virtually cure the consumption issue.
It all requires diagnosis, analysis, and maybe a little trial and error knowing the risks when it comes to resurrecting an engine with a high oil consumption problem. There's not a blanket one-size-fits-all answer.
As for your repeated assertion that "most synthetics" contain "a very high dose of solvent or detergent" and will cause leaks.... That's ancient mythology. Let's try to stick to AT LEAST the 20th century here, and preferably the century we're actually living in.
Bold is to highlight exactly what we have experienced here. I have had excellent results with motors in otherwise ok but tired condition by using Kreen to free the ring pack. It can work.
As is usually the case you must know what is broken before trying to fix it. No one oil can possibly be good for everyone all the time everywhere.
Additives have their place.
So does Skyship!
That depends."
If the consumption is from dried/cracked/gone 'umbrella' valve stem seals, then a solvent really won't matter.
If its leakage from gaskets- I agree with you.
If its consumption past rings due to wear, then nothing will matter either way.
If, however, its consumption due to stuck oil control rings, then a massive dose of solvents that will free the stuck oil control rings can also virtually cure the consumption issue.
It all requires diagnosis, analysis, and maybe a little trial and error knowing the risks when it comes to resurrecting an engine with a high oil consumption problem. There's not a blanket one-size-fits-all answer.
As for your repeated assertion that "most synthetics" contain "a very high dose of solvent or detergent" and will cause leaks.... That's ancient mythology. Let's try to stick to AT LEAST the 20th century here, and preferably the century we're actually living in.
Bold is to highlight exactly what we have experienced here. I have had excellent results with motors in otherwise ok but tired condition by using Kreen to free the ring pack. It can work.
As is usually the case you must know what is broken before trying to fix it. No one oil can possibly be good for everyone all the time everywhere.
Additives have their place.
So does Skyship!
Fortunately I've never had the need for additives apart from fuel system cleaning which is a simpler area where I've read the original PEA research by Chevron, and which has manufacturer approvals.
Unfortunately, I've learnt nothing from reading these long long threads on oil additives. Seems like its the replacement dueling area for the 20 vs 30 weight oil arguments.
Unfortunately, I've learnt nothing from reading these long long threads on oil additives. Seems like its the replacement dueling area for the 20 vs 30 weight oil arguments.
Were my posts not worthy of replies, oh great one?
Using solvents to unstick rings is a maintenance procedure and somewhat outside the subject I was commenting on. Trying to fix a problem is always better than resorting to oil additives or simply changing oil types, my main concern in starting this thread was that folks that have an engine which is a serious oil burner don't make the problem worse by using solvents, obviously if they can fix the cause of the high oil consumption that would be the best idea, but if they are not interested in doing that then switching to an HM oil is the next best move, as those oils have add packs designed for such problems.
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: skyship
BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix
I can get a valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket for $20 for my Corolla. At most, you're looking at the price of a single oil change with a high mileage oil and a decent filter to replace these seals if you don't mind spinning a couple dozen screws yourself.
If the price of an oil change puts someone's car beyond economic repair, why would you suggest changing the oil? Further, if their car has that little value left, their insurance company is ripping them off if they're charging anything but pennies a month to cover it.
Obviously if you can fix an oil leak that would be the best idea, but many older cars with high oil consumption have a number of different problems and it is fairly expensive to replace bad seals and rings.
I don't think many cars are in so bad a state that an oil change is not worth it. A cam belt service might not be worth doing in economic terms.
Insurance companies charge for 3rd party risks, so the value of the vehicle only matters if you have fully comprehensive insurance, which most owners of old cars in poor condition don't have.
Originally Posted By: skyship
BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix
I can get a valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket for $20 for my Corolla. At most, you're looking at the price of a single oil change with a high mileage oil and a decent filter to replace these seals if you don't mind spinning a couple dozen screws yourself.
If the price of an oil change puts someone's car beyond economic repair, why would you suggest changing the oil? Further, if their car has that little value left, their insurance company is ripping them off if they're charging anything but pennies a month to cover it.
Obviously if you can fix an oil leak that would be the best idea, but many older cars with high oil consumption have a number of different problems and it is fairly expensive to replace bad seals and rings.
I don't think many cars are in so bad a state that an oil change is not worth it. A cam belt service might not be worth doing in economic terms.
Insurance companies charge for 3rd party risks, so the value of the vehicle only matters if you have fully comprehensive insurance, which most owners of old cars in poor condition don't have.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: skyship
BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix
I can get a valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket for $20 for my Corolla. At most, you're looking at the price of a single oil change with a high mileage oil and a decent filter to replace these seals if you don't mind spinning a couple dozen screws yourself.
If the price of an oil change puts someone's car beyond economic repair, why would you suggest changing the oil? Further, if their car has that little value left, their insurance company is ripping them off if they're charging anything but pennies a month to cover it.
Obviously if you can fix an oil leak that would be the best idea, but many older cars with high oil consumption have a number of different problems and it is fairly expensive to replace bad seals and rings.
I don't think many cars are in so bad a state that an oil change is not worth it. A cam belt service might not be worth doing in economic terms.
Insurance companies charge for 3rd party risks, so the value of the vehicle only matters if you have fully comprehensive insurance, which most owners of old cars in poor condition don't have.
Okay, but you were specifically talking about oil leaks caused by high detergent oils, so that's what I was addressing. Can we stick to that so you don't look like you're trying to move the goalposts when someone provides a valid counterpoint?
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: skyship
BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix
I can get a valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket for $20 for my Corolla. At most, you're looking at the price of a single oil change with a high mileage oil and a decent filter to replace these seals if you don't mind spinning a couple dozen screws yourself.
If the price of an oil change puts someone's car beyond economic repair, why would you suggest changing the oil? Further, if their car has that little value left, their insurance company is ripping them off if they're charging anything but pennies a month to cover it.
Obviously if you can fix an oil leak that would be the best idea, but many older cars with high oil consumption have a number of different problems and it is fairly expensive to replace bad seals and rings.
I don't think many cars are in so bad a state that an oil change is not worth it. A cam belt service might not be worth doing in economic terms.
Insurance companies charge for 3rd party risks, so the value of the vehicle only matters if you have fully comprehensive insurance, which most owners of old cars in poor condition don't have.
Okay, but you were specifically talking about oil leaks caused by high detergent oils, so that's what I was addressing. Can we stick to that so you don't look like you're trying to move the goalposts when someone provides a valid counterpoint?
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: skyship
BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix
I can get a valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket for $20 for my Corolla. At most, you're looking at the price of a single oil change with a high mileage oil and a decent filter to replace these seals if you don't mind spinning a couple dozen screws yourself.
If the price of an oil change puts someone's car beyond economic repair, why would you suggest changing the oil? Further, if their car has that little value left, their insurance company is ripping them off if they're charging anything but pennies a month to cover it.
Obviously if you can fix an oil leak that would be the best idea, but many older cars with high oil consumption have a number of different problems and it is fairly expensive to replace bad seals and rings.
I don't think many cars are in so bad a state that an oil change is not worth it. A cam belt service might not be worth doing in economic terms.
Insurance companies charge for 3rd party risks, so the value of the vehicle only matters if you have fully comprehensive insurance, which most owners of old cars in poor condition don't have.
Okay, but you were specifically talking about oil leaks caused by high detergent oils, so that's what I was addressing. Can we stick to that so you don't look like you're trying to move the goalposts when someone provides a valid counterpoint?
One thing I should point out is that most folks even with older engines that change from using a conventional to a full synthetic don't get a significant increase in leaks or consumption, but when you have an engine that is a serious oil burner the risk is much higher. Using solvent additives is a much more significant risk because they will dissolve varnish in a much more effective manner and that can be real bad news.
This other thread is a very good example of the use of an HM oil:
Maxlife use.
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: KeMBro2012
Originally Posted By: skyship
BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix
I can get a valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket for $20 for my Corolla. At most, you're looking at the price of a single oil change with a high mileage oil and a decent filter to replace these seals if you don't mind spinning a couple dozen screws yourself.
If the price of an oil change puts someone's car beyond economic repair, why would you suggest changing the oil? Further, if their car has that little value left, their insurance company is ripping them off if they're charging anything but pennies a month to cover it.
Obviously if you can fix an oil leak that would be the best idea, but many older cars with high oil consumption have a number of different problems and it is fairly expensive to replace bad seals and rings.
I don't think many cars are in so bad a state that an oil change is not worth it. A cam belt service might not be worth doing in economic terms.
Insurance companies charge for 3rd party risks, so the value of the vehicle only matters if you have fully comprehensive insurance, which most owners of old cars in poor condition don't have.
Okay, but you were specifically talking about oil leaks caused by high detergent oils, so that's what I was addressing. Can we stick to that so you don't look like you're trying to move the goalposts when someone provides a valid counterpoint?
One thing I should point out is that most folks even with older engines that change from using a conventional to a full synthetic don't get a significant increase in leaks or consumption, but when you have an engine that is a serious oil burner the risk is much higher. Using solvent additives is a much more significant risk because they will dissolve varnish in a much more effective manner and that can be real bad news.
This other thread is a very good example of the use of an HM oil:
Maxlife use.
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Originally Posted By: skyship
One thing I should point out is that most folks even with older engines that change from using a conventional to a full synthetic don't get a significant increase in leaks or consumption, but when you have an engine that is a serious oil burner the risk is much higher. Using solvent additives is a much more significant risk because they will dissolve varnish in a much more effective manner and that can be real bad news.
This other thread is a very good example of the use of an HM oil:
Maxlife use.
The assumption you're making is that varnish reduces or prevents oil consumption, and it simply does not. The only thing varnish does, aside from make internal surfaces sticky (a bad thing, BTW, especially if it happens on a contact surface) is clog holes (including holes in failed seals and gaskets). Varnish on a contact surface will never prevent or reduce consumption and removing that varnish will never increase consumption. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Let's look at an engine with varnish build up on the cylinder walls (which is unlikely due to ring scraping, but then so is much of what you say, so bear with me). The varnish, being sticky, will grab the rings as they try to slide past it, causing deflection, which prevents them from scraping oil off the cylinder walls effectively, leading to increased consumption. Removing this varnish would reduce or eliminate that deflection, thereby reducing or eliminating the consumption.
Now, I'm a software and systems engineer, so I might not be up to speed on all that mechanical engineering stuff. That's why I ran this past a buddy of mine who actually *is* a mechanical engineer after I wrote it, and he signed off on it. I wouldn't want to make myself look silly by posting made-up [censored] with no basis in reality, after all.
Regarding varnish clogging holes, yes it will clog holes in worn seals, which will slow or stop a leak, but that comes at a cost, and again is only effective on non-contact surfaces, such as oil pan and valve cover gaskets. I consulted with my mechanical engineer friend regarding valve stem seals and, with his guidance, determined that these would affected negatively by varnish, as well. You see, varnish buildup on either (or both) the valve stem or the seal itself will cause the stem to grab the seal as it moves, pulling at it and eventually tearing it, causing a leak.
Varnish isn't always a bad thing; it's really only a problem on contact surfaces. That doesn't, however, mean that it's ever a good thing; it's not.
One thing I should point out is that most folks even with older engines that change from using a conventional to a full synthetic don't get a significant increase in leaks or consumption, but when you have an engine that is a serious oil burner the risk is much higher. Using solvent additives is a much more significant risk because they will dissolve varnish in a much more effective manner and that can be real bad news.
This other thread is a very good example of the use of an HM oil:
Maxlife use.
The assumption you're making is that varnish reduces or prevents oil consumption, and it simply does not. The only thing varnish does, aside from make internal surfaces sticky (a bad thing, BTW, especially if it happens on a contact surface) is clog holes (including holes in failed seals and gaskets). Varnish on a contact surface will never prevent or reduce consumption and removing that varnish will never increase consumption. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Let's look at an engine with varnish build up on the cylinder walls (which is unlikely due to ring scraping, but then so is much of what you say, so bear with me). The varnish, being sticky, will grab the rings as they try to slide past it, causing deflection, which prevents them from scraping oil off the cylinder walls effectively, leading to increased consumption. Removing this varnish would reduce or eliminate that deflection, thereby reducing or eliminating the consumption.
Now, I'm a software and systems engineer, so I might not be up to speed on all that mechanical engineering stuff. That's why I ran this past a buddy of mine who actually *is* a mechanical engineer after I wrote it, and he signed off on it. I wouldn't want to make myself look silly by posting made-up [censored] with no basis in reality, after all.
Regarding varnish clogging holes, yes it will clog holes in worn seals, which will slow or stop a leak, but that comes at a cost, and again is only effective on non-contact surfaces, such as oil pan and valve cover gaskets. I consulted with my mechanical engineer friend regarding valve stem seals and, with his guidance, determined that these would affected negatively by varnish, as well. You see, varnish buildup on either (or both) the valve stem or the seal itself will cause the stem to grab the seal as it moves, pulling at it and eventually tearing it, causing a leak.
Varnish isn't always a bad thing; it's really only a problem on contact surfaces. That doesn't, however, mean that it's ever a good thing; it's not.
You won't get varnish inside cylinders as it is far too hot and I can assure you that removing all the varnish from an old engine with seals and gaskets in poor condition is a real good way to start some oil leaks.
This is one related comment on the Amsoil site:
You may have heard the myth that synthetics cause engine seals to leak. Synthetics absolutely do not cause seals to leak, they simply may only reveal an existing leak path and seal which has failed and is in need of mechanical replacement. Either the seal lip is worn down or the seal is hardened and cracked from old age, heat and ozone. What happens is exactly as we described above. If you have a very old engine that has been running petroleum oil, and it also leaks, for example around the rear-main oil seal, then chances are it will leak more with synthetic oil. This is commonly referred to as a "false seal".
In other words they are admitting that using their full synthetics is going to increase the leak rate or oil consumption.
This is one related comment on the Amsoil site:
You may have heard the myth that synthetics cause engine seals to leak. Synthetics absolutely do not cause seals to leak, they simply may only reveal an existing leak path and seal which has failed and is in need of mechanical replacement. Either the seal lip is worn down or the seal is hardened and cracked from old age, heat and ozone. What happens is exactly as we described above. If you have a very old engine that has been running petroleum oil, and it also leaks, for example around the rear-main oil seal, then chances are it will leak more with synthetic oil. This is commonly referred to as a "false seal".
In other words they are admitting that using their full synthetics is going to increase the leak rate or oil consumption.
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