Solvents and oil leaks.

[skyship]

There have been a number of recent posts in other sections of this forum from folks that have engines with very high oil consumption or leaks. For some silly reason various snake oil fans keep saying to use Moo oil, engine Cream or some other engine cleaner.
The worst possible oil to use in an engine with a high oil consumption is one with either a very high detergent or solvent content and that includes most full synthetics or any kind of cleaner additive. I've taken apart and inspected a lot of old engines and I can assure you that if an engine has very worn or split oil seals and you dissolve all the varnish it can seriously increase the oil consumption or leak rate.
Engines with very high oil consumption should not be flushed with anything or have any type of cleaner additive used, they need to be cleaned properly or if that is too expensive then changing to a major brand HM oil with a few short OCI's will help if trying to fix the source of the high oil consumption is not practical.

 

[kr_bitog]

moo oil,engine cream... hahahahaha

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
There have been a number of recent posts in other sections of this forum from folks that have engines with very high oil consumption or leaks. For some silly reason various snake oil fans keep saying to use Moo oil, engine Cream or some other engine cleaner.
The worst possible oil to use in an engine with a high oil consumption is one with either a very high detergent or solvent content and that includes most full synthetics or any kind of cleaner additive. I've taken apart and inspected a lot of old engines and I can assure you that if an engine has very worn or split oil seals and you dissolve all the varnish it can seriously increase the oil consumption or leak rate.
Engines with very high oil consumption should not be flushed with anything or have any type of cleaner additive used, they need to be cleaned properly or if that is too expensive then changing to a major brand HM oil with a few short OCI's will help if trying to fix the source of the high oil consumption is not practical.


How does a few short OCI's with a HM oil fix "very worn or split oil seals"? With all the problems you describe don't you think opening up the tool box would be a good idea? Or using a thicker oil, heck or maybe a stop leak additive? LOL Additives still have their place, even you were preaching idle flushes not long ago. LOL Not all members are as stupid as you think they are, many of us have some experience and common sense, a lot more than you give credit for.

 

[skyship]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship
There have been a number of recent posts in other sections of this forum from folks that have engines with very high oil consumption or leaks. For some silly reason various snake oil fans keep saying to use Moo oil, engine Cream or some other engine cleaner.
The worst possible oil to use in an engine with a high oil consumption is one with either a very high detergent or solvent content and that includes most full synthetics or any kind of cleaner additive. I've taken apart and inspected a lot of old engines and I can assure you that if an engine has very worn or split oil seals and you dissolve all the varnish it can seriously increase the oil consumption or leak rate.
Engines with very high oil consumption should not be flushed with anything or have any type of cleaner additive used, they need to be cleaned properly or if that is too expensive then changing to a major brand HM oil with a few short OCI's will help if trying to fix the source of the high oil consumption is not practical.


How does a few short OCI's with a HM oil fix "very worn or split oil seals"? With all the problems you describe don't you think opening up the tool box would be a good idea? Or using a thicker oil, heck or maybe a stop leak additive? LOL Additives still have their place, even you were preaching idle flushes not long ago. LOL Not all members are as stupid as you think they are, many of us have some experience and common sense, a lot more than you give credit for.



Fixing the problem would be a good idea and it's always a good idea to consider replacing old oil seals or cleaning an engine correctly, BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix, so after warning them it is best to get the problem repaired correctly, if they have a high oil consumption changing to an HM oil is a good move. HM oils seem to be very good at both reducing sludge and oil consumption, stop leaks do work but can interfere with the function of the oil. I have used them a few times, but they are more of an emergency measure to be used when all else fails.
Using solvents directly to free stuck rings is OK, although in most cases of high oil consumption the rings are not stuck but badly worn or even broken in some cases.

PS. Where is the previous post did I say HM oils fix bad seals?

 

[Falcon_LS]

Originally Posted By: skyship
The worst possible oil to use in an engine with a high oil consumption is one with either a very high detergent or solvent content and that includes most full synthetics or any kind of cleaner additive.


Dirty piston ring packs is one the reasons why an engine may consume oil, and I've had great luck switching to synthetics that clean - PP, PU or even PYB have done a great job. I've also used Liqui Moly's ProLine Engine Flush to clean the said packs with great success, increasing compression.

On the other hand, many so called high mileage oils have higher levels of detergency.

Originally Posted By: skyship
I've taken apart and inspected a lot of old engines and I can assure you that if an engine has very worn or split oil seals and you dissolve all the varnish it can seriously increase the oil consumption or leak rate.


I presume you mean sludge, as cosmetic varnish has no affect on oil consumption. If an engine is worn enough to be producing really low compression readings, then it's time for a rebuild.

Originally Posted By: skyship
Engines with very high oil consumption should not be flushed with anything or have any type of cleaner additive used, they need to be cleaned properly or if that is too expensive then changing to a major brand HM oil with a few short OCI's will help if trying to fix the source of the high oil consumption is not practical.


So let me get something straight. "The worst possible oil to use in an engine with a high oil consumption is one with either a very high detergent or solvent content and that includes most full synthetics or any kind of cleaner additive." But they need to be cleaned anyway and if you can't pull the engine apart, then use high mileage oil with high levels of detergency?

 

[skyship]

HM oils do contain more detergents than a normal oil, BUT they don't dissolve varnish in an agressive manner like solvent additives or a few of the full synthetics do. The risk from the solvent additives is much higher than from the full synthetics.

 

[electrolover]

I can only think of one additive thats not a solvent at all and used for cleaning. Makes me question your motive skyship.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: electrolover
I can only think of one additive thats not a solvent at all and used for cleaning. Makes me question your motive skyship.

Me too! I have a funny feeling someone is in contact with ol skunkship to push something. Time will tell.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: skyship
There have been a number of recent posts in other sections of this forum from folks that have engines with very high oil consumption or leaks. For some silly reason various snake oil fans keep saying to use Moo oil, engine Cream or some other engine cleaner.
The worst possible oil to use in an engine with a high oil consumption is one with either a very high detergent or solvent content and that includes most full synthetics or any kind of cleaner additive. I've taken apart and inspected a lot of old engines and I can assure you that if an engine has very worn or split oil seals and you dissolve all the varnish it can seriously increase the oil consumption or leak rate.
Engines with very high oil consumption should not be flushed with anything or have any type of cleaner additive used, they need to be cleaned properly or if that is too expensive then changing to a major brand HM oil with a few short OCI's will help if trying to fix the source of the high oil consumption is not practical.


"That depends."

If the consumption is from dried/cracked/gone 'umbrella' valve stem seals, then a solvent really won't matter.

If its leakage from gaskets- I agree with you.

If its consumption past rings due to wear, then nothing will matter either way.

If, however, its consumption due to stuck oil control rings, then a massive dose of solvents that will free the stuck oil control rings can also virtually cure the consumption issue.

It all requires diagnosis, analysis, and maybe a little trial and error knowing the risks when it comes to resurrecting an engine with a high oil consumption problem. There's not a blanket one-size-fits-all answer.


As for your repeated assertion that "most synthetics" contain "a very high dose of solvent or detergent" and will cause leaks.... That's ancient mythology. Let's try to stick to AT LEAST the 20th century here, and preferably the century we're actually living in.

 

[LeakySeals]

Thank you for creating your own thread and leaving the other additive threads alone.

 

[Rand]

I fully approve of people pooping on this false, misleading, trolling thread.


and skyshipt please use some kind of punctuation or spacing those bricks make you look like chevyboy posting from his phone.

 

[skyship]

I did give a slightly wrong impression in my original post as normal engine oils don't contain solvents regardless of whether they are conventional or synthetic.
Trying to free oil control rings using solvents that are applied directly is sometimes worth a try for an engine that has a reputation for ring problems, but that is a maintenance procedure and I was only commenting on oil related matters.
The seal conditioners in HM oils might not do anything for worn rings but they are very effective for valve guide oil seals.

 

[mechtech2]

Skyshi_ strikes again!

 

[surfstar]

So, a non-detergent motor oil, maybe straight SAE30, is best for cars that consume/burn oil. Got it.

 

[TuBon_gRips]

Originally Posted By: skyship
There have been a number of recent posts in other sections of this forum from folks that have engines with very high oil consumption or leaks. For some silly reason various snake oil fans keep saying to use Moo oil, engine Cream or some other engine cleaner.
The worst possible oil to use in an engine with a high oil consumption is one with either a very high detergent or solvent content and that includes most full synthetics or any kind of cleaner additive. I've taken apart and inspected a lot of old engines and I can assure you that if an engine has very worn or split oil seals and you dissolve all the varnish it can seriously increase the oil consumption or leak rate.
Engines with very high oil consumption should not be flushed with anything or have any type of cleaner additive used, they need to be cleaned properly or if that is too expensive then changing to a major brand HM oil with a few short OCI's will help if trying to fix the source of the high oil consumption is not practical.


I can assure you that if an engine has worn or split seals, they should be replaced. I'd rather have to replace a bad seal (that was bad before I started using a high-detergent oil, mind you) than a whole engine.

Have you ever considered that, as an insurance inspector, if that is, in fact, your true profession, you're inspecting engines that failed, rather than engines that were kept on the road, and that this may, in fact, skew your data quite a bit? Consider that you see engines with split and worn seals that are not leaking because those seals are still "held together" by varnish and sludge. Further consider that the varnish and sludge "saves" those seals by blocking the flow of oil through the seals. Bear in mind that the varnish and sludge will also exist elsewhere in the engine, where it will also block the flow of oil. Now, consider why you, an insurance investigator, are looking at this engine.

You don't see the ones that leak, because oil flow is restored before it becomes an issue for you to investigate. Fewer engine failures, fewer engines to investigate... are you here trying to drum up some job security?

 

[MONKEYMAN]

Originally Posted By: skyship
The seal conditioners in HM oils might not do anything for worn rings but they are very effective for valve guide oil seals.


I wish you would tell my Saturn that.

As far as I can tell HM oil had no effect on smoke I get from valve guide seals. I use a bottle of White Shepherd (now called Blue Devil) during the warmer months and it get rid of the puffs of smoke at idle.

This winter I was getting higher oil consumption on highway trips. Went through 5 quarts of top off oil in 3,000 miles. A quart of MMO used to top off the oil decreased that consumption.

The ideal thing would be replacing rings and valve guide seals. Financially it does not make sense to me on a well running engine in a car I will not have much longer.

My solution works for me. Not that I recommend it for anyone. Every deviation from what the manufacturer recommends has consequences. My experience is some things are dismissed or promoted without experience or data to support claims.

 

[TuBon_gRips]

Originally Posted By: skyship
BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix


I can get a valve cover gasket and oil pan gasket for $20 for my Corolla. At most, you're looking at the price of a single oil change with a high mileage oil and a decent filter to replace these seals if you don't mind spinning a couple dozen screws yourself.

If the price of an oil change puts someone's car beyond economic repair, why would you suggest changing the oil? Further, if their car has that little value left, their insurance company is ripping them off if they're charging anything but pennies a month to cover it.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: skyship
There have been a number of recent posts in other sections of this forum from folks that have engines with very high oil consumption or leaks. For some silly reason various snake oil fans keep saying to use Moo oil, engine Cream or some other engine cleaner.
The worst possible oil to use in an engine with a high oil consumption is one with either a very high detergent or solvent content and that includes most full synthetics or any kind of cleaner additive. I've taken apart and inspected a lot of old engines and I can assure you that if an engine has very worn or split oil seals and you dissolve all the varnish it can seriously increase the oil consumption or leak rate.
Engines with very high oil consumption should not be flushed with anything or have any type of cleaner additive used, they need to be cleaned properly or if that is too expensive then changing to a major brand HM oil with a few short OCI's will help if trying to fix the source of the high oil consumption is not practical.


How does a few short OCI's with a HM oil fix "very worn or split oil seals"? With all the problems you describe don't you think opening up the tool box would be a good idea? Or using a thicker oil, heck or maybe a stop leak additive? LOL Additives still have their place, even you were preaching idle flushes not long ago. LOL Not all members are as stupid as you think they are, many of us have some experience and common sense, a lot more than you give credit for.



Fixing the problem would be a good idea and it's always a good idea to consider replacing old oil seals or cleaning an engine correctly, BUT the folks with the problems often have cars that are beyond economic repair and they are looking for a quick fix, so after warning them it is best to get the problem repaired correctly, if they have a high oil consumption changing to an HM oil is a good move. HM oils seem to be very good at both reducing sludge and oil consumption, stop leaks do work but can interfere with the function of the oil. I have used them a few times, but they are more of an emergency measure to be used when all else fails.
Using solvents directly to free stuck rings is OK, although in most cases of high oil consumption the rings are not stuck but badly worn or even broken in some cases.

PS. Where is the previous post did I say HM oils fix bad seals?


Why not read your first post you mentioned HM oils didn't you?

 

[FoxS]

If I remember correctly, skyship is a big advocate of full synthetic oils. He looks down on dino blends.

And if I remember correctly, skyship also recommends high mileage oils because the oil companies know the right mix of additives.

But now he is saying in his opening post that there is danger in using oils with high detergent content in engines with high consumption. But oils with high detergency are high mileage oils without exception and skyship also said "most full synthetics" will have high detergent levels.

But he closes the same opening post by saying "Engines with very high oil consumption .... changing to a major brand HM oil .... will help".

He's contradicted himself in a single opening post of a thread he started.

I wonder what would happen if you use a full synthetic high mileage oil? Will the engine blow up?

According to your opening post, that combo of full synthetic and high mileage oil has too much detergent right?

But in other posts you've advocated full syn exclusively and said the oil companies know what they are doing with their high mileage additive mixes.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: skyship
I did give a slightly wrong impression in my original post as normal engine oils don't contain solvents regardless of whether they are conventional or synthetic.
Trying to free oil control rings using solvents that are applied directly is sometimes worth a try for an engine that has a reputation for ring problems, but that is a maintenance procedure and I was only commenting on oil related matters.
The seal conditioners in HM oils might not do anything for worn rings but they are very effective for valve guide oil seals.


Keep on tap-dancin'