Solar power is getting cheaper every year

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I see solar on around 5% or fewer homes here, mainly because people find better way to spend their money than installing solar (capital cost or risk to the real estate price when they want to sell quick). The panels are cheap these days and it is really the installation and permit cost that keep it up on the roof. You won't get these deals like those large scale solar farm.

On the other hand, large businesses have been putting solar on their roofs and it does reduce their energy cost quickly, because of the cost structure they have in large scale.

I'd personally replace my electric laundry dryer with gas model before I go solar, and if I do go solar I'd only install enough to get me out of the 3rd / 4th tier rate that cost 30-40c/kwh, and still pay the utility 1st / 2nd tier that cost 10-20c/kwh
 
Originally Posted By: bvance554
You steal your kilowatts from other states just like you do your water. Then you say hey look how awesome we are over here, we got it all figured out. CA is a poor example, of pretty much everything.


What??????????? Steal? What????????

Most water used here is for agriculture.

Which mostly leaves CA and feeds all of America.

We would be self reliant for water if you didn't steal our food!
grin.gif


And we only use so much electricity because we're busy giving you Facebook, Twitter, Google, Apple, Hollywood movies and the Kardashians.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Shannow
And someone else needs to provide that 800MW for the 16+ hours of the day that the solar isn't producing 800MW...what's so difficult about that ?

OR as per my post that you quoted but don't seem to have addressed...
* they have to install 2,400MW of solar panels (more actually);
* plus 1.3GW of storage (batteries and the like)...

Which in and of themselves use about 25c/KWh round trip lifecycle cost to store and release that energy.

While solar is a disruptive technology, it CAN be cheap...when a country ends up solar renewable, it HAS to be expensive.

You are confusing.


Try getting up to speed on
* capacity factor
* reliability
and you might not be so confused.
 
Here's what I mean by cheap renewables will become too expensive to charge your EVs.

It's a link and quote, so should be a little less confusing.

http://www.treehugger.com/renewable-ener...y-win-game.html

Quote:
What this means in practice is that if you build a solar system with a capacity of 100 megawatts, in practice it won't produce energy at that level all the time. So you might get 100 MW out of it when the sun is out, but at night or on cloudy days, you don't. If you average it all, you might only get a 20% capacity factor. But don't worry, when we look at the cost of 1kWh of wind or solar, we're talking about actually produced energy, so the capacity factor is embedded in that price.

The reason why this matters so much has to do with one of the big strengths of wind and solar: Once the wind turbines or the solar panels are installed and paid for, the power produced has basically a marginal cost very close to zero.


Quote:
As Bloomberg explains: "It’s a self-reinforcing cycle. As more renewables are installed, coal and natural gas plants are used less. As coal and gas are used less, the cost of using them to generate electricity goes up. As the cost of coal and gas power rises, more renewables will be installed."


Quote:
It's kind of like a flywheel, and the more solar panels we install, the more wind turbines are built, the faster it spins. At some point, doesn't make any sense to run fossil fuels on sunny or windy days, and overall capacity factors go down enough that prices are simply not competitive with storage, and rather than build new natural gas plants, utilities will simply buy more renewables combined with storage.


As I've said, because the capacity factor of the solar panels is like 20%, you need 5 times as many to get the same power.

Then you need storage, to store the excess and distribute it out of hours...and for Li, that's about 25c/KWh round trip, even with free electricity...

As the article states, power prices will rise until it's cheaper to install storage...As I said, the excess capacity in daytime hours will force the prices to zero/-ve to encourage consumption.

Problem is that overnight, which is when the fossil/nuke fueled stations have the lowest prices to avoid coming offline due to demand...precisely the time that you intend to recharge your tesla, you will be doing it off batteries, at 25c wholesale levelised cost of storage price PLUS the premium that will be required to get new investors putting in batteries.

Using SHOZ' data (sans connection fee), that's 34.5c/KWh, just for storage and delivery, let alone profit and encouraging people to put in new batteries.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
My electric bill is divided up with many charges. The actual wholesale cost of electricity is very cheap and my coop buys all it's power. It's the delivery and generation charges that really kick the bill up.


The "wholesale" cost in regular parlance IS the generation cost + profit and overhead, i.e. the price that the generator is prepared to sell the electricity into the pool.

The "energy", 3.767c kwh rate is what they are taking from you as profit and overhead..."generation" 4.65c/kwh, is what it's costing them wholesale...so they are charging you 160% of their wholesale costs, before adding the delivery and transmission (and connection fee)...13.7c/KWh, +$40/mo. total.
 
Here's a novel and in production solar plan at around $17K for 4kw.

Solar Powered Smart Flowers Are New Focus for Cape Wind Champion Jim Gordon

REW_SolarPoweredSmartFlowersNew1.jpg


REWSmartFlower2Stowed.jpg


The SmartFlower wakes up at sunrise, fans out its solar panels to 194 ft² and automatically cleans itself in preparation for capturing the sun’s rays. SmartFlower then turns to face the sun at a 90°angle, and follows the sun throughout the day using dual-axis tracking to maximize solar energy yield. One SmartFlower produces the equivalent of a 4 kW rooftop system, according to the company.

Energy harvested during the day is stored in the lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4 or LFP) batteries and managed through a “smart” energy management system that helps the homeowner decide when to use power from grid, the battery or the solar panels. The company is working on more smart features that that, for example, might enable the system to decide what to do if there is too much power — perhaps suggesting the homeowner turn on the air conditioner or the pool pump.
 
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
But I do think that solar near the point of use has the potential to be a more effective way of moving to renewables.

Exactly. And also why Shanno's 1st post in this thread is pure poppycock. Whoever said we need giant megawatt solar production factories? Our roof panels are producing an average of 1.5Kwh/mo - way more than enough for a typical single family home. I'm just anxious to see how much the electric company is going to PAY ME for all the electricity we've put on the grid after the end of our annual cycle.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I see solar on around 5% or fewer homes here, mainly because people find better way to spend their money than installing solar (capital cost or risk to the real estate price when they want to sell quick). The panels are cheap these days and it is really the installation and permit cost that keep it up on the roof. You won't get these deals like those large scale solar farm.

On the other hand, large businesses have been putting solar on their roofs and it does reduce their energy cost quickly, because of the cost structure they have in large scale.

I'd personally replace my electric laundry dryer with gas model before I go solar, and if I do go solar I'd only install enough to get me out of the 3rd / 4th tier rate that cost 30-40c/kwh, and still pay the utility 1st / 2nd tier that cost 10-20c/kwh


That's the problem with consumer-produced alternative energy. Even though a lot of people probably could afford some amount of it, you'd have to be absolutely in love with "being green" or a billionaire to even consider putting solar/wind in.
 
Originally Posted By: horse123
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I see solar on around 5% or fewer homes here, mainly because people find better way to spend their money than installing solar (capital cost or risk to the real estate price when they want to sell quick). The panels are cheap these days and it is really the installation and permit cost that keep it up on the roof. You won't get these deals like those large scale solar farm.

On the other hand, large businesses have been putting solar on their roofs and it does reduce their energy cost quickly, because of the cost structure they have in large scale.

I'd personally replace my electric laundry dryer with gas model before I go solar, and if I do go solar I'd only install enough to get me out of the 3rd / 4th tier rate that cost 30-40c/kwh, and still pay the utility 1st / 2nd tier that cost 10-20c/kwh

That's the problem with consumer-produced alternative energy. Even though a lot of people probably could afford some amount of it, you'd have to be absolutely in love with "being green" or a billionaire to even consider putting solar/wind in.
You can get 1kwh solar systems that are ready to plug in to the wall for about $1.50 a watt.
 
Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
But I do think that solar near the point of use has the potential to be a more effective way of moving to renewables.

Exactly. And also why Shanno's 1st post in this thread is pure poppycock. Whoever said we need giant megawatt solar production factories? Our roof panels are producing an average of 1.5Kwh/mo - way more than enough for a typical single family home. I'm just anxious to see how much the electric company is going to PAY ME for all the electricity we've put on the grid after the end of our annual cycle.


How does your example of rooftop installed solar panels negate anything Shannow said in his first post? Rooftop solar doesn't change that much in the energy install equation except reduce transmission loss. Transmission loss is said to be 5-10% but does that make up for the reduced output of a rooftop system (because they are not in optimized locations) as well increased installation cost?
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Rooftop solar doesn't change that much in the energy install equation except reduce transmission loss.

How wrong could you be? It practically eliminates the need for big power-plants, if enough customers use it. High-level infrastructure design should be adapted to leverage decentralization in the future, as opposed to the legacy big facility generation model Shanno describes.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Shannow,

I said Western States residence has cleaner sources of electricity, this is based on 33% of all electricity generated in US in 2015 was coal.

The US map above showed very little power plant in Western States use coal.


Then look at where Ca is getting it's electricity from...

WesternPowerFlows_map.png


again, there's an extension lead running to the neighbour's yard.

To use one of your recent analogies, you've got your ZEV in your shed running, but the extension lead to the generator that is running in your neighbour's.


Yes, but the cord from Oregon to Southern California isn't plugged into a fossil fuel source. It's plugged into the Federal Columbia River Power System. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get 1kwh solar systems that are ready to plug in to the wall for about $1.50 a watt.


I doubt it, unless the whole system is off grid, at least not here. If I were to install solar I'd make sure the shade it creates is something I can take advantage of (reduce attic temperature in the summer). Roofing is expensive, so unless I'm building a new house or have to replace my roof, I'm not going roof top solar.

The panel and hardware cost is low, but even if you hire illegal immigrants to install it the labor would still be the biggest chunk of cost. The Chinese got scammed into building a lot of solar production capacity that they now have to dump into the market below cost. Its good to take advantage of that if you can find a way to use that labor anyways (new construction or replacement roof).
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
How does your example of rooftop installed solar panels negate anything Shannow said in his first post? Rooftop solar doesn't change that much in the energy install equation except reduce transmission loss. Transmission loss is said to be 5-10% but does that make up for the reduced output of a rooftop system (because they are not in optimized locations) as well increased installation cost?


However... at least around here it is always the transmission that's the bottleneck, and he who control the power source while the transmission line is full controls the pricing. It doesn't matter how efficient an Arizona plant is, if the line is full a California coal plant can charge as much as it wants and PG&E has to eat the cost.

We have what's called SMART DAYS in our PG&E plan that you get 2c discount during normal days and nights, but up to 15 days a year they can raise the rate from 20c to 60c / kWh from 2pm-7pm. This extra 40c is how much the local plant can gouge PG&E when the line is saturated.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get 1kwh solar systems that are ready to plug in to the wall for about $1.50 a watt.


I doubt it, unless the whole system is off grid, at least not here. If I were to install solar I'd make sure the shade it creates is something I can take advantage of (reduce attic temperature in the summer). Roofing is expensive, so unless I'm building a new house or have to replace my roof, I'm not going roof top solar.

The panel and hardware cost is low, but even if you hire illegal immigrants to install it the labor would still be the biggest chunk of cost.
Look on ebay. How you or where you install it is up to you. They do just plug in though with the provided inverter.
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get 1kwh solar systems that are ready to plug in to the wall for about $1.50 a watt.


I doubt it, unless the whole system is off grid, at least not here. If I were to install solar I'd make sure the shade it creates is something I can take advantage of (reduce attic temperature in the summer). Roofing is expensive, so unless I'm building a new house or have to replace my roof, I'm not going roof top solar.

The panel and hardware cost is low, but even if you hire illegal immigrants to install it the labor would still be the biggest chunk of cost.
Look on ebay. How you or where you install it is up to you. They do just plug in though with the provided inverter.


What am I going to use an inconsistent power source for? The only rational way I can think of using it for is to plug in my AC to it. However it is not going to be powerful enough if I don't buy a big panel, or it would be a waste of money if I overbought a big panel so it would still power my AC in the worst case scenario.

Solar is useless without a grid connection or a battery.
 
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
You can get 1kwh solar systems that are ready to plug in to the wall for about $1.50 a watt.


I doubt it, unless the whole system is off grid, at least not here. If I were to install solar I'd make sure the shade it creates is something I can take advantage of (reduce attic temperature in the summer). Roofing is expensive, so unless I'm building a new house or have to replace my roof, I'm not going roof top solar.

The panel and hardware cost is low, but even if you hire illegal immigrants to install it the labor would still be the biggest chunk of cost.
Look on ebay. How you or where you install it is up to you. They do just plug in though with the provided inverter.


What am I going to use an inconsistent power source for? The only rational way I can think of using it for is to plug in my AC to it. However it is not going to be powerful enough if I don't buy a big panel, or it would be a waste of money if I overbought a big panel so it would still power my AC in the worst case scenario.

Solar is useless without a grid connection or a battery.
They do plug into your house wiring so they are connected to the grid. Basically your house will use it before it gets to the grid though for the most part. The inverter needs grid power to work though, so it shuts down when that is lost. No need for switch gear.
 
Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Rooftop solar doesn't change that much in the energy install equation except reduce transmission loss.

How wrong could you be? It practically eliminates the need for big power-plants, if enough customers use it. High-level infrastructure design should be adapted to leverage decentralization in the future, as opposed to the legacy big facility generation model Shanno describes.


OK, the world can (and should) be powered by rooftop solar...where do you get your power from the other 16 hours of the day, or is the sun 24/7 over your house ?

The simple fact is that to replace 1,000MW of thermal, you need 4,000-5,000MW of solar panels (whether they are on a roof or not), plus 32,000MWh of storage to draw on when the sun goes down...whether that is in the network, or your own Tesla wall.

Do you deny that ?
 
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Here's a novel and in production solar plan at around $17K for 4kw.

https://www.smartflower.com/assets/smartflowerpopplus_en-2a6002c8d812428b8da691198f16490d.pdf

2.3Kwh batteries, with 5,000 cycle life at 50% discharge (note that they go beyond that in their power curve), and two cycles per day, 2,500 day design life on the batteries (6.8 years).

Pick the high end of 6,200KWh/a over 6.8 years, and that's 40c/KWh...If you assume that only half the purchase price is spent in replacement batteries, it's 20c/kWh to own and operate. (remember I used the maximum annual output there, YMMV).
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Here's a novel and in production solar plan at around $17K for 4kw.

https://www.smartflower.com/assets/smartflowerpopplus_en-2a6002c8d812428b8da691198f16490d.pdf

2.3Kwh batteries, with 5,000 cycle life at 50% discharge (note that they go beyond that in their power curve), and two cycles per day, 2,500 day design life on the batteries (6.8 years).

Pick the high end of 6,200KWh/a over 6.8 years, and that's 40c/KWh...If you assume that only half the purchase price is spent in replacement batteries, it's 20c/kWh to own and operate. (remember I used the maximum annual output there, YMMV).
Pretty good for new technology. What would the cost have been 10 years ago?
 
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