Hey car51, what's with that bragging about the 100 plus quarts of oil? Sounds like a little boy at a show and tell about his GI Joe collection or maybe his stash of marbles. Wow !
Sodium
- Thread starter NHRATA
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
What happens when you mix sodium with water ?
That depends, Merk, and that's why we have to watch your little "trolling" threads.
If you want to know what happens when you mix sodium with water, go to your local university, get a block of sodium, and throw it in the toilet. Stand back when you do it, by the way.
If you're talking about mixing sodium salt into water, as in sodium chloride, it will dissolve into an ionic solution, and, you'll have salt water. Yes, it can be conducive to corrosion, it is conductive, and doesn't taste great.
None of this, however, matters. The sodium in an oil's additive package is neither elemental sodium nor sodium chloride, so neither of these things will happen if moisture gets into your engine.
Don't let Mola read this thread or he'll spit his coffee all over his monitor. SonofJoe probably did so already with his tea.
madeej11: This is BITOG, so people occasionally discuss their oil stashes, which is quite on topic here, and of interest to many other users. We even have threads dedicated to showing pictures of oil stashes. I've posted in those threads and read all about people's stashes, too.
What happens when you mix sodium with water ?
That depends, Merk, and that's why we have to watch your little "trolling" threads.
If you want to know what happens when you mix sodium with water, go to your local university, get a block of sodium, and throw it in the toilet. Stand back when you do it, by the way.
If you're talking about mixing sodium salt into water, as in sodium chloride, it will dissolve into an ionic solution, and, you'll have salt water. Yes, it can be conducive to corrosion, it is conductive, and doesn't taste great.
None of this, however, matters. The sodium in an oil's additive package is neither elemental sodium nor sodium chloride, so neither of these things will happen if moisture gets into your engine.
Don't let Mola read this thread or he'll spit his coffee all over his monitor. SonofJoe probably did so already with his tea.
madeej11: This is BITOG, so people occasionally discuss their oil stashes, which is quite on topic here, and of interest to many other users. We even have threads dedicated to showing pictures of oil stashes. I've posted in those threads and read all about people's stashes, too.
Last edited:
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Think SAAS might actually inhibit … what is the end game here? Use something else if there is a perceived worry …
Ha, my chemistry teacher in high school did the pure sodium in a puddle trick. Never forgot lol. It has been posted here before that some of the newer organic friction modifiers can show up as sodium.
Originally Posted By: spj
... It has been posted here before that some of the newer organic friction modifiers can show up as sodium.
All the more reason to go by a history of UOA's and not worry what's in the oil, just worry about how it's performing in your engine given its requirements and your driving style etc.
... It has been posted here before that some of the newer organic friction modifiers can show up as sodium.
All the more reason to go by a history of UOA's and not worry what's in the oil, just worry about how it's performing in your engine given its requirements and your driving style etc.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Why Valvoline chose to go Sodium (as opposed to the more common Ca or Mg) isn't obvious from a technical or cost point of view.
As far as I can tell, Valvoline uses Sodium in addition to Calcium, not instead of it.
Why Valvoline chose to go Sodium (as opposed to the more common Ca or Mg) isn't obvious from a technical or cost point of view.
As far as I can tell, Valvoline uses Sodium in addition to Calcium, not instead of it.
First of all, the sodium used in oil as a detergent is usually either a compound: sodium sulphonate or salicylate. This is not the same compound as table salt: sodium chloride. Stop conflating them.
Calcium and Sodium alone are metals. In LSPI testing, when Calcium, in any of the three commonly used compounds for oil detergent, was present, particularly at concentrations of 1500 ppm or above, the incidents of LSPI in testing went way up. When a normally used Sodium compound, for detergency, was added TO the oil, in a concentration of about 400 ppm, along with the Calcium at 1500 ppm, this combination DOUBLED the incidents of LSPI in testing. That is probably why Sodium is disappearing from D1G2 formulations
Magnesium compounds either did not increase or slightly decreased incidents of LSPI, so at the moment it is thought Magnesium compounds used as detergents are LSPI neutral. This probably accounts for Magnesium seemingly substituted for Calcium, to some extent, in the new D1G2 formulations.
Moly and Zinc compounds have apparently been "quenching"(literally and figuratively) LSPI incidents in testing. However, Zinc compounds have thier own issues with catalytic converters and such in greater concentrations. This is probably why you see the concentration of Moly going up in the new oils, as opposed to the Zinc.
It appears the two problem metals, Calcium and Sodium, in that the way they breakdown during combustion, leave particles, causing "glowing" hot spots, which ignite other flammable substances in the combustion chamber. The manner of ignition, or what is being ignited, is still somewhat in speculation. The role of Calcium and Sodium is not speculative.
My guess is that, unless some groundbreaking discovery is made, sodium in any discerned amount will absent in most oils in the future. Calcium will probably stay in the below 1500 ppm range. This is assuming newer emissions and CAFE regs do not impact LSPI further.
Calcium and Sodium alone are metals. In LSPI testing, when Calcium, in any of the three commonly used compounds for oil detergent, was present, particularly at concentrations of 1500 ppm or above, the incidents of LSPI in testing went way up. When a normally used Sodium compound, for detergency, was added TO the oil, in a concentration of about 400 ppm, along with the Calcium at 1500 ppm, this combination DOUBLED the incidents of LSPI in testing. That is probably why Sodium is disappearing from D1G2 formulations
Magnesium compounds either did not increase or slightly decreased incidents of LSPI, so at the moment it is thought Magnesium compounds used as detergents are LSPI neutral. This probably accounts for Magnesium seemingly substituted for Calcium, to some extent, in the new D1G2 formulations.
Moly and Zinc compounds have apparently been "quenching"(literally and figuratively) LSPI incidents in testing. However, Zinc compounds have thier own issues with catalytic converters and such in greater concentrations. This is probably why you see the concentration of Moly going up in the new oils, as opposed to the Zinc.
It appears the two problem metals, Calcium and Sodium, in that the way they breakdown during combustion, leave particles, causing "glowing" hot spots, which ignite other flammable substances in the combustion chamber. The manner of ignition, or what is being ignited, is still somewhat in speculation. The role of Calcium and Sodium is not speculative.
My guess is that, unless some groundbreaking discovery is made, sodium in any discerned amount will absent in most oils in the future. Calcium will probably stay in the below 1500 ppm range. This is assuming newer emissions and CAFE regs do not impact LSPI further.
Out here in the Shops tear down room: I will admit the the valvoline oiled engines do look better in all areas, cly wear, bearing wear etc...I was never a valvoline guy, but years of tear downs made me one. Whatever they use in formulations WORKS!!
Originally Posted By: ShotGun429
Out here in the Shops tear down room: I will admit the the valvoline oiled engines do look better in all areas, cly wear, bearing wear etc...I was never a valvoline guy, but years of tear downs made me one. Whatever they use in formulations WORKS!!
The issue is not whether sodium compounds work as a detergent, but whether or not the sodium compounds are or will be in current and future oil formulations.
Out here in the Shops tear down room: I will admit the the valvoline oiled engines do look better in all areas, cly wear, bearing wear etc...I was never a valvoline guy, but years of tear downs made me one. Whatever they use in formulations WORKS!!
The issue is not whether sodium compounds work as a detergent, but whether or not the sodium compounds are or will be in current and future oil formulations.
Originally Posted By: spj
Ha, my chemistry teacher in high school did the pure sodium in a puddle trick. Never forgot lol. It has been posted here before that some of the newer organic friction modifiers can show up as sodium.
Is the claim here that these FMs are organometallic compounds that contain sodium or that they fool the elemental analysis tools into thinking there is sodium present?
Ha, my chemistry teacher in high school did the pure sodium in a puddle trick. Never forgot lol. It has been posted here before that some of the newer organic friction modifiers can show up as sodium.
Is the claim here that these FMs are organometallic compounds that contain sodium or that they fool the elemental analysis tools into thinking there is sodium present?
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: car51
You need to have your meds changed
What happens when you mix sodium with water ?
Which sodium? The additive or table salt genius?
Originally Posted By: car51
You need to have your meds changed
What happens when you mix sodium with water ?
Which sodium? The additive or table salt genius?
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
What role does iodine play in all of this?
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
What role does iodine play in all of this?
Only if it is in sea salt.
What role does iodine play in all of this?
Only if it is in sea salt.
Originally Posted By: car51
Which sodium? The additive or table salt genius?
I'm sure you know he means elemental sodium metal, which has nothing to do with motor oils.
Which sodium? The additive or table salt genius?
I'm sure you know he means elemental sodium metal, which has nothing to do with motor oils.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: car51
Which sodium? The additive or table salt genius?
I'm sure you know he means elemental sodium metal, which has nothing to do with motor oils.
Oh, I know this. Merkava just doesn’t like Valvoline oils is all
Originally Posted By: car51
Which sodium? The additive or table salt genius?
I'm sure you know he means elemental sodium metal, which has nothing to do with motor oils.
Oh, I know this. Merkava just doesn’t like Valvoline oils is all
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Is the claim here that these FMs are organometallic compounds that contain sodium or that they fool the elemental analysis tools into thinking there is sodium present?
The ICP machine won't be fooled. It will decompose any compounds and report the metals present. Its a gross summation of all the sodium (or any other metal ion) so you don't have any idea of the structure of the compounds the metals came from, or their origin.
Is the claim here that these FMs are organometallic compounds that contain sodium or that they fool the elemental analysis tools into thinking there is sodium present?
The ICP machine won't be fooled. It will decompose any compounds and report the metals present. Its a gross summation of all the sodium (or any other metal ion) so you don't have any idea of the structure of the compounds the metals came from, or their origin.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
What role does iodine play in all of this?
In what.
What role does iodine play in all of this?
In what.
Originally Posted By: Garak
That depends, Merk, and that's why we have to watch your little "trolling" threads.
If you want to know what happens when you mix sodium with water, go to your local university, get a block of sodium, and throw it in the toilet. Stand back when you do it, by the way.
If you're talking about mixing sodium salt into water, as in sodium chloride, it will dissolve into an ionic solution, and, you'll have salt water. Yes, it can be conducive to corrosion, it is conductive, and doesn't taste great.
None of this, however, matters. The sodium in an oil's additive package is neither elemental sodium nor sodium chloride, so neither of these things will happen if moisture gets into your engine.
Don't let Mola read this thread or he'll spit his coffee all over his monitor. SonofJoe probably did so already with his tea.
Are you telling me that the sodium they put in motor oil and the sodium that's on the shelf at the grocery store are two different things ? If so, then why are all the health experts constantly telling us to get on a low sodium diet ? Something about high blood pressure or something.
That depends, Merk, and that's why we have to watch your little "trolling" threads.
If you want to know what happens when you mix sodium with water, go to your local university, get a block of sodium, and throw it in the toilet. Stand back when you do it, by the way.
If you're talking about mixing sodium salt into water, as in sodium chloride, it will dissolve into an ionic solution, and, you'll have salt water. Yes, it can be conducive to corrosion, it is conductive, and doesn't taste great.
None of this, however, matters. The sodium in an oil's additive package is neither elemental sodium nor sodium chloride, so neither of these things will happen if moisture gets into your engine.
Don't let Mola read this thread or he'll spit his coffee all over his monitor. SonofJoe probably did so already with his tea.
Are you telling me that the sodium they put in motor oil and the sodium that's on the shelf at the grocery store are two different things ? If so, then why are all the health experts constantly telling us to get on a low sodium diet ? Something about high blood pressure or something.
You really need to have your potable water tested ASAP
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Are you telling me that the sodium they put in motor oil and the sodium that's on the shelf at the grocery store are two different things ? If so, then why are all the health experts constantly telling us to get on a low sodium diet ? Something about high blood pressure or something.
Nope, the sodium in those two things is exactly the same.
Are you telling me that the sodium they put in motor oil and the sodium that's on the shelf at the grocery store are two different things ? If so, then why are all the health experts constantly telling us to get on a low sodium diet ? Something about high blood pressure or something.
Nope, the sodium in those two things is exactly the same.
- Status
Similar threads
