So called "top tier" gas more a gimmick??

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: snofarmer
Actually Maximus1966 is spot on.

Refinery's refine the crude oil,
They sell it to distributors.
It gets to the fuel distributors ie "fuel depot'(large storage tanks) by pipe line.
It's all the same product at this point.

All fuel/gas additives are added at the depot when the tanker truck is filled.
Branding=additives.



What Garak and I pointed out was that this isn't necessarily the way it happens up here in the GWN. It appears as though our distribution model may differ from yours.

But what you've outlined also isn't what Maximus1966 was saying, he said this:

Originally Posted By: Maximus1966
Top Tier is a total farce. There is NO enforcement, therefore NO compliance. Gasoline is a fungible commodity, sold and transferred at will. The savings in transportation costs alone prevent distributors from assuring that any station gets a particular "brand" or mystery additive package. In today's energy environment you are lucky to even get the octane grade you think you are buying.


And since you cited the API website, I'll cite the Top Tier one:

http://www.toptiergas.com

Quote:
Gasoline retailers must meet the high TOP TIER standards with all grades of gasoline to be approved by the automakers as providing TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.

In addition, all gasoline outlets carrying the brand of the approved retailer must meet the TOP TIER standards.

Additional gasoline retailers are added to the TOP TIER list as they meet the standards. The retailers known to be on the TOP TIER list are shown below.


Quote:

Deposit Control Standards

The standards developed by the four automobile manufacturers (BMW, General Motors, Honda, and Toyota) for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline are described below. This technical document describes the deposit control performance of unleaded gasoline at the retail level that minimizes deposits on fuel injectors, intake valves, and combustion chambers. These standards comprise the requirements for TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline.


Quote:
1.3.1.2 Base Fuel. The base fuel shall conform to ASTM D 4814 and shall contain commercial fuel grade ethanol conforming to ASTM D 4806. All gasoline blend stocks used to formulate the base fuel shall be representative of normal U.S. refinery operations and shall be derived from conversion units downstream of distillation. Butanes and pentanes are allowed for vapor pressure adjustment. The use of chemical streams is prohibited. The base fuel shall have the following specific properties after the addition of ethanol:

Contain enough denatured ethanol such that the actual ethanol content is no less than 8.0 and no more than 10.0 volume percent.
Contain no less than 8 volume percent olefins. At least 75% of the olefins shall be derived from FCC gasoline as defined by CARB (advisory letter, April 19, 2001).
Contain no less than 28 volume percent aromatics as measured by ASTM D 1319 or D 5580.
Contain no less than 24 mg/kg sulfur as measured by ASTM D 2622 or D 5453. At least 60% of the sulfur shall be derived from FCC blend stock.
Produce a 90% evaporation distillation temperature no less than 290F. as measured by ASTM D 86.
Produce IVD no less than 500 mg averaged over all intake valves.


Quote:
1.3.1.3 Demonstration of Performance. The base fuel from 1.3.1.2 shall contain enough deposit control additive such the IVD is no more than 50 mg averaged over all intake valves. Results for individual valves and an average shall be reported. The unwashed gum level of the fuel containing deposit control additive shall be determined according to ASTM D 381 and reported.


And from their FAQ:

Quote:
Can I have only my high volume gas stations be TT and not all of them?
No. A TOP TIER license agreement states that all stations under a brand name or franchise name must use the same detergency treat rate. The fuel marketer cannot select only certain service stations to use the TOP TIER detergency treat rate.


Quote:
Can I change my additive concentration without notice as long as I keep it higher than my TT treat rate in my license agreement?
No. The TOP TIER license agreement states a specific detergent treat rate that is good for the term length of the agreement. If there is a change to the treat rate, performance data must be provided and reviewed by the automotive sponsors. A new treat rate that is introduced during the term of a license agreement would require an amendment to the license agreement that would expire at the same date as the original license agreement.


I will e-mail them about how they enforce this. But it appears the RULES that apply to the Top Tier program are pretty clear.

 

[snofarmer]

Why? because some think TT is some magical gas that is refined just for that brand of station.
Pumped out of the ground by "shell"(for example)
Refined by Shell.
Transported/distributed by shell.
Additive by shell.
super clean, etc etc.
when the only difference is the additive that is added by machine in the % called for by the station buying it when the tanker is filled.

ho and thees additives are nothing priority about them, anyone can use them, it's only the % of each or what ones that are used that changes.
It's costs then around a $1.00 or less to treat 100 gal.

 

[snofarmer]

So thees fancy high priced cars are really junk. They are Dirty, requiring even more than the AVG detergent package to stay clean.

albatross....

Gas is gas only the additives are different from station to station.(of course octane changes with grade)
Additives are not added at the station.
You can add more of the same additives and save yourself a drive around town looking for TT gas.
You can buy a lot of the very same additives at the local lumber yard in the paint/ solvent section.

Nor is it certain how much additive is really necessary to keep an engine clear of deposits. The fuel detergent is only one component, as anything that causes incomplete combustion will lead to valve deposits and fuel injector clogging. It's easy for an auto mechanic to simply declare the problem is the gasoline. So the science is uncertain, and the industry response is certainly not unanimous. Regardless, we are actively researching the issue directly with the various additive manufacturers. We are hesitant to raise the cost of fuel to our members without first understanding if this is simply a way for some brands to charge more for their fuel. We do know that we sell a tremendous amount of fuel with very few complaints.

Costco only buys fuel from reputable suppliers, and we do a very good job of maintaining our tanks and pump filters to assure clean fuel is delivered to our members. If you remain concerned about fuel deposits, Costco sells a four-pack of Chevron's Proguard fuel injector cleaner in our warehouses for about $10, or $2.50 per bottle. It's much less expensive to use a bottle of this occasionally than to buy higher priced fuel every time you fill up. Any auto parts store has a shelf full of similar products.

Again, all Costco fuel contains detergent additives sufficient to meet the government standards. As with anything we sell, our fuel is 100% guaranteed.http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=2606847

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: snofarmer

Gas is gas only the additives are different from station to station.(of course octane changes with grade)
Additives are not added at the station.


Calm down guy, that's exactly what we are saying, that the additive levels required to classify a fuel as top tier are different and added upstream of the station (with the exception of Costco, which Garak mentioned). But that these additive levels must remain consistent for a given brand in order for them to carry the Top Tier moniker.

Quote:
You can add more of the same additives and save yourself a drive around town looking for TT gas.
You can buy a lot of the very same additives at the local lumber yard in the paint/ solvent section.


I'm not sure where you live but why would I willingly spend more money to additive sub-par fuel to Top Tier levels when almost every gas station in town, selling gas at the same price, is selling Top Tier fuel?

When I drove down to North Carolina, I had no problem finding Shell stations to fill up at, or any of the other stations on the rather extensive list on the TT site. If somebody is willingly gassing up at "Joe's home gas" and then goes and spends money on separate additives to make the fuel "better" instead of just buying the better fuel for the same price as the cheap fuel in the first place, well.........

 

[snofarmer]

kick kick.

At the other end of the fuel quality spectrum are "Top Tier" gasolines. These fuels are recognized by the vehicle manufacturers as having the most effective additives and in the highest concentrations. Gasoline retailers must meet the high Top Tier standards with all their grades of gasoline (not just premium) to be designated a Top Tier supplier. In addition, all the gasoline outlets carrying the brand of approved gasoline also must meet the same standards. There are very few refiners that meet this qualification.

Unfortunately, fuel quality isn't something that is easily policed. Many states have programs in place to monitor fuel quality on either an ongoing basis or "incident specific" basis. Most are run by the state's Department of Weights and Measures. Even so, the focus of most of these programs is to make sure consumers aren't being cheated at the pump and get the full gallon they pay for. Some programs also check fuels to make sure they do not contain too much alcohol. The specific density of gasoline can be field tested to determine its volatility and alcohol content. But testing octane and the amount and type of additives in the fuel requires expensive laboratory testing. So this type of quality testing is rarely done.

According to some industry experts, many gasoline marketers have reduced the concentration of fuel additives in their fuel up to 50% in recent years!

Most gasoline refiners don't want to sell the public bad gas because they obviously want repeat customers. Generally though they know that deposit formation is a gradual thing that occurs over time. So if they cut back on the additive package to save a few cents per gallon, nobody is likely to find out and it can be explained away until hard evidence is found. This hard evidence is expensive and time consuming to obtain. The only agency likely to be able to do this is the Federal Government via the EPA. Even if they decide to do this today, it will likely take years to complete and more years to do anything about it. In the meantime refiners will pocket millions of dollars in savings.http://www.wellworthproducts.com/articles/gasolineproblems.asp

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: D189379
Why is this topic so heated? Top Tier sells for the same price as non-top tier around here. All things being equal, I'll fill up at the place that claims to use x additives compared the one that doesn't.

Best case, I get a few additives that may or may not help my vehicle. Worst case, I'm paying the same price for the same gasoline.


Actually an excellent response. I cannot remember the last time our fleet or personal vehicles experienced any fuel related problem.

I can remember when Chevron was actually used by every major mfgr of cars for their EPA certification testing where they had to run a real car for 50k miles and demonstrate emissions compliance. That was a LONG time ago. These days i suspect the difference is quite small from pump to pump.

And of course my standard mantra: The need for specific gasoline is highly platform specific. Some cars may actually derive a real benefit from TT fuels. But some may never know the difference.

 

[PandaBear]

http://www.toptiergas.com/faqs.html

Quote:
Can I have only my high volume gas stations be TT and not all of them?

No. A TOP TIER license agreement states that all stations under a brand name or franchise name must use the same detergency treat rate. The fuel marketer cannot select only certain service stations to use the TOP TIER detergency treat rate.


So all station of the same brand must be on it or not, and the brand owner (i.e. Chevron, Texaco, Shell, 76, etc) are responsible for enforcing it

Quote:
What if my terminal rack will not supply a TT level of detergency? How do I become TT?

If a terminal will only supply LAC detergent level, there are a couple of options. If the detergent additive has been TOP TIER performance tested and passed at a specific treat rate, then a second level of detergent amount would need to be added to match that TOP TIER treat rate. The fuel marketer would then need to provide verification that they always supply the same TOP TIER detergent treat rate to their service stations in order to apply for a TOP TIER license agreement. A second option is to work with the terminal and discuss any hardware improvements that would need to be made to ensure the TOP TIER detergent rate would be provided to your fuel.


So if you get the same gas at the terminal of the pipeline or depot with no variation from one another, you have to add more on your own, and provide test / certification that it is treated that way.

Quote:
If the terminal rack supplies 30 PTB and I have an approved TT treat rate of 70 PTB, do I need to add 70 PTB to the fuel I received or can I add just 40 PTB to bring the fuel up to the TT treat rate of 70 PTB?

You need to provide the detergent treat rate stated in your TOP TIER license agreement. However you get to that rate, with validating paperwork, is up to you.


So you need validation document, (i.e. purchase receipt of the additional detergents?)


I would imagine large franchiser already does all that in their own audit to check if their franchisees cheat by selling subpar / non brand certificed gasoline to begin with if they want to stay in business. I'd imagine if they check that you sell 50000 gallon of gas this week but only has paperwork for 10000 gallon of gas and additives from the brand, you are cheating already. Top tier is just some paperwork audit on top of what they routinely do anyways.

 

[snofarmer]

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/graemlins/crazy2.gif[/IMG]

We haven't had a shell station in the area for years.
and around hear gas can vary by $0.10-$.20 depending on the station.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: snofarmer


We haven't had a shell station in the area for years.
and around hear gas can vary by $0.10-$.20 depending on the station.


That's wild, I saw them constantly on the road to NC

In Canada, pretty much every small town has at least an Esso, Shell or Petro-Canada station. Those are our main brands and they are EVERYWHERE. Sure you get the odd mom/pop outfit, but their prices are usually the same at the pump as the majors. And even if they are 0.01 or 0.02 cents a litre cheaper, you are going to pay more than that to boost your fuel up to the levels of TT if you do your own dosing.

Now the odd time you'll have decent swings in prices... like 5-10 cents between different stations in the same city. But the funny thing is that those differences will be between TT vendors. IE, the Shell is 1.28/L and the Esso up the street is $1.35/L, stuff like that.

 

[andrewg]

I have avoided my local Costco gas facility because I'd heard they only had the regular grade detergent gasoline and not the much discussed 'Top Tier' formulation. Well, just recently they have changed the detergent quantity (according to Costco) and now expect to get a Top Tier endorsement. So....being that I DO subscribe to what my auto manual prefers for gasoline (Top Tier), I'll now start getting my fuel from my local Costco. It will be less per gallon than Shell or Chevron.
I know many of you could not care any less about what Costco says about the new gas (Clean Power I think they call it)....but here is a short info blurb:

"Since 1995, all gasoline sold in the U.S. must include an EPA-approved detergent additive. All Costco gas has always contained these additives. Costco gas stations are well maintained and our fuel has always been 100% guaranteed.
Increasing Federal emissions and mileage requirements, plus the competitive pressures of the automotive marketplace, have led to improved and more complicated engine designs. These improvements make many engines more sensitive to carbon deposits on intake valves and clogged fuel injectors. Dirty engines can sometimes trigger a"check engine" dashboard warning light. Many of the latest model vehicles perform better using fuel that contains more than the minimum EPA detergent requirement.
As our valued member, you expect Costco to always offer the finest quality products at the best possible price. Gasoline is no exception. Costco has closely studied fuel additives and engine deposits, and conducted extensive fuel tests at nationally-recognized laboratories. As a result, we decided to increase the detergent additives in our fuel to provide a better value to our members. Cleaner engines run better, run longer, and they pollute less.
Costco gas with Kirkland Signature Clean Power detergent additives contains five times the EPA detergent requirement. Clean Power doesn't just keep your engine clean - it also helps remove any existing deposits. Costco Gasoline - Something good just got better!"

 

[Uregina09]

Garak, it's interesting that you've heard people claim that the Co-op sells some of the worst gas in the province. I've actually heard the opposite from a few people. Also, when I was completing my commerce degree in 2000, I remember reading an academic case study about the Co-op refinery in Regina and how it produced "the best diesel in the world" (whatever that means) or something to that effect. Since then, I've purchased pretty much all of my fuel from the Co-op because I figure if anyone is going to be generous with the additivies, it'll be the Co-op. Of course I could be terribly wrong, but I think and hope not. Plus, the Co-op sells the most fuel of anyone in the city, and the patronage and rebate cheque is nice.

I've run Co-op fuel pretty much exclusively in my 2011 Ford F150 with the ecoboost and 2007 Toyota Sienna and haven't noticed any ill effects, although perhaps I'm not as in-tune with my vehicles as some on this site. My 92 year-old grandpa and uncles have run nothing but Co-op fuel and lubricants on their farm for as long as I can remember. I guess time will tell.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: Uregina09
Garak, it's interesting that you've heard people claim that the Co-op sells some of the worst gas in the province. I've actually heard the opposite from a few people. Also, when I was completing my commerce degree in 2000, I remember reading an academic case study about the Co-op refinery in Regina and how it produced "the best diesel in the world" (whatever that means) or something to that effect. Since then, I've purchased pretty much all of my fuel from the Co-op because I figure if anyone is going to be generous with the additivies, it'll be the Co-op. Of course I could be terribly wrong, but I think and hope not. Plus, the Co-op sells the most fuel of anyone in the city, and the patronage and rebate cheque is nice.

I've run Co-op fuel pretty much exclusively in my 2011 Ford F150 with the ecoboost and 2007 Toyota Sienna and haven't noticed any ill effects, although perhaps I'm not as in-tune with my vehicles as some on this site. My 92 year-old grandpa and uncles have run nothing but Co-op fuel and lubricants on their farm for as long as I can remember. I guess time will tell.



My Harley doesn't ping with co-op premium,shell premium and petro Canada premium.
Esso gas sounds horrible,race trac gas sucks,so I don't even bother going anywhere else anymore.

 

[Bill in Utah]

Okay... Some time off for someone who does not play correct? Check

Removed quite a few insulting posts from the thread? Check

If you are missing a post it is because you prob quoted someone who did not post with any respect to other members. If his posts are taken off the board so will (most of the quotes) be gone too.

Sorry if your post was removed.

Please state your piece without getting disrespectful towards other folks. It does not help.

Bill

 

[Errtt]

Funny how I've heard a number of folks say the gas at the base AAFES station just isn't as good as anything else. A little less mpg, some say doesn't idles as smooth, some say a little less pep.
Been hearing it for years, so good enough to keep me from using it.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: snofarmer
According to some industry experts, many gasoline marketers have reduced the concentration of fuel additives in their fuel up to 50% in recent years!

That's exactly why Top Tier gas came about in the first place.

And as for distribution up here, apparently, there are some differences. The refineries are all owned or co-owned by various big oil companies. Co-op happens to own the one here. As I mentioned, though, places like Petro-Canada do not like to get their gas from anywhere but their own refineries.

Regina isn't quite "big oil," but I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess at how much pipeline we have coming in and going out of here, and we have significant rail traffic. With the refinery and number of large facilities owned by the big oil companies here, it's likely quite a bit.

The day of the independent gas station here is in its twilight. If you're in the city, you can't afford the liability and environmental regulations to have underground tanks, and you can't afford the real estate to put in above ground tanks. If you're in the rural area, you're an afterthought to the distributors because you actually go through less gas than some large farming operations. They have no more control over their pricing than an Esso employee, either.

When the tanker truck is filled, yes, that's the simplest time to put in the additives. We also have to remember that tankers have several compartments and that they don't carry enough gas to fill every station in town, either.

Like I said, the Flying J trucks fill a lot of stations in this city. They fill the Shells, where I have no problems. They also fill certain independents with whom I have had very, very bad experiences in fleet usage. Shell Canada is obviously not giving them their proprietary additive package, particularly when they can sell them gas without it for the same price. Shell sells them gas at the price they feel like charging. If the independent doesn't want to pay that much or thinks he should get Top Tier additives for free, Shell won't care and will leave his tanks empty. And Petro-Canada has obviously made the decision that they wish to sell gas with their additive package, and their package only. They shut down operations during a shortage of Petro-Canada gas. They didn't want Co-op gas or Shell gas or Esso gas or Husky gas. Petro-Canada's detergent package is trademarked.

Up here, these stations are relatively independent to some degree. Petro-Canada stations are about the least independent, whereas Esso is probably the most, and you'll actually see more SOPUS oil on their shelves than Mobil products, whereas at a Petro-Canada, the appropriately branded automotive products must be sold and promotional pricing is mandatory. Nonetheless, the oil companies do NOT want their stations shopping around for the best deal on gasoline (i.e. from someone else), nor providing a garbage product that damages the company reputation.

Overkill's points about branding in Canada is important. Take any tiny town with a gas station. The odds are that it will actually have two. One will be a Co-op. The other will be a Top Tier station, or sometimes a Husky/Mohawk, but most likely an Esso, Petro-Canada, or Shell. Co-op takes good care of small towns, but they run bankers' hours. Big oil has distributors all over, so it's no biggie for them to keep a small town station supplied, and they run good hours and are usually in the best locations for the out of towners or passers by.

My whole point is that there is good gas and bad gas, and I do everything I can to avoid the bad gas. Top Tier is no guarantee. But, when you combine a trusted retailer, a high volume station, a known brand name, and Top Tier, you're probably getting good gas. There are no guarantees in life, of course. We heard about how some SM/GF-4 M1 did not actually meet SM/GF-4, so it shouldn't surprise any of us that we can get bad gas anywhere without warning. If people have absolutely no faith in the Top Tier notion, then should the EPA and the Canadian equivalent get out of regulating gasoline altogether?

Forget Top Tier, let's get rid of ethanol, let's just load up the fuel with lead and sulphur and have it it, right?

Also, I would request that you do something to differentiate quoting sources and making your own statements. At worst, it's plagiarism. At best, it's confusing.

@SteveSRT8: I've had somewhat different experience with fleet usage, and we do have to beware. Sometimes, a fuel related issue isn't obvious or causing immediate and urgent problems. I've had taxi drivers that didn't give two hoots about pinging or rough running, as long as they could save a few cents a litre for themselves. When I did deal with fleet purchases of fuel, it was before Top Tier, and the "rule" at the time was to go with a company with whom other fleet managers have had good luck, or, at worst, whatever is available in a small market. This province also has no emissions testing. If it did, perhaps a significant number of failures would cause motorists to review their buying habits and cause independent retailers to pay more attention to what they're selling.

And the platform specific mention is important. My old F-150 doesn't care so long as it burns.

On the other hand, my old Town Car was the most fuel-sensitive car I've ever owned that required only regular.

@Uregina09 and Clevy: I have nothing bad to say about Co-op diesel at all. Their market share and widespread availability here says all that needs to be said about it. I haven't personally had a lot of issues with Co-op gas. I had pinging once or twice in it (the Lincoln referenced above), but no complaints. They do, however, advertise their premium as 90.5 octane, however, in their data sheets, which is marginally insufficient in most vehicles requiring premium. That being said, I use it often enough and in every vehicle I've ever owned, including my G and Audi and Lightning, all of which required premium. There were no problems. My point was simply that they advertise their fuel as different than other retailers, and that supports my point that gasoline isn't all the same, at least once it's at the point of being branded. I only have three beefs with Co-op. First, their hours are terrible. I'm self employed and a night person. I can't stand when Co-op gas stations close at 9:00 p.m., much less 5:00 or 6:00 as the Co-ops due in rural Saskatchewan. Secondly, I hate full service, and the closest Co-ops to my location or any of my businesses are full service. Hands off, thanks. Third, I like to get my taxes done early. I don't like waiting for tax receipts. The Co-op takes their sweet time getting them out, whereas I have my stuff in sufficient order to get it to the accountant January 1, should I be so inclined.

I don't like Race Trac gas either, Clevy. I haven't touched that stuff in over ten years. Besides, it's not exactly convenient for me. I've had excellent luck with Esso gas, and for whatever reason, it seems to make my vehicles run the smoothest. I'm sure it's my imagination, just like I say people are imagining things when they say one oil brand is quieter than another. Nonetheless, Esso has been good to me. PC is about my favourite thanks to their hours and convenience. There are only two 24H Essos in or near Regina, whereas the Petro-Canadas are all 24H except one in the south end.

I have always liked Husky/Mohawk, E-10 or not, but I sure got spooked when I got that bad load of gas in the Audi. The thing would barely idle. I ran it as low as I could as quickly as possible, and as soon as I got Esso/Petro-Canada/Co-op or whatever else it was in there, it was like night and day.