About 20 years ago at the Del Mar Fair in California there was a guy selling an oil additive. He had a machine that would spin a shaft against a couple of balls with the load controlled by a torque wrench. He would pour various oils into this cup, and press the balls against the shaft and show the force required to stop the spinning. Ordinary oils and other additives would stop at a couple of pounds of pressure, but his attitive would go up to 30 or 40 pounds, even with he removed the cup and let the shaft continue spinning... imagine that. I went back to the farm animal display and got a cup of my special attitive and he was floored to find that it worked just as well as his special stuff. I don't know what his 'stuff' was but mine was bleach. So, does that mean that bleach is a good additive?
Snake oil demo
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Personally, I start out each morning with about 32 oz of bleach. Works really well to get my heart going.
If it's good for me, then it has to be good for my engine, right?
If it's good for me, then it has to be good for my engine, right?
Yes.
For whites and linens.
Did that guy pack up his display and leave?
Reminds me of the car show I was at this past summer with someone demonstrating this wonderful new polymer sealant for your paint. They were showing how fast and easy it removed oxidized paint from a hood out of a junkyard (it was a Ford Tempo hood in typical soft Ford single stage red). I asked if I could do my demo on this hood too, and with that question, developed a small audience. I wet my index finger in my mouth and rubbed it somewhat vigorously on a small area of it, then with my dry hand, wiped the area dry. It shined just as good as their sealant.
They asked me to leave.
They asked me to leave.
I read a post (not on BITOG) about two guys that came back to the slickster's booth the next day with an unspecified liquid in a shampoo bottle. It was every bit as good as the additive the slickster was selling. He said it was remarkable, but what was in the bottle?
It was the shampoo that was on the label. The two guys laughed at his snake-oil and walked away.
Hmmmm, can I say "Head & Shoulders" in this post without breaking any rules or starting a new thread?
It was the shampoo that was on the label. The two guys laughed at his snake-oil and walked away.
Hmmmm, can I say "Head & Shoulders" in this post without breaking any rules or starting a new thread?
HAHAHAHA!
HAHAHAHAHA!!!quote:
Originally posted by GT Mike:
Reminds me of the car show I was at this past summer with someone demonstrating this wonderful new polymer sealant for your paint. They were showing how fast and easy it removed oxidized paint from a hood out of a junkyard (it was a Ford Tempo hood in typical soft Ford single stage red). I asked if I could do my demo on this hood too, and with that question, developed a small audience. I wet my index finger in my mouth and rubbed it somewhat vigorously on a small area of it, then with my dry hand, wiped the area dry. It shined just as good as their sealant.
They asked me to leave.
I was commissioning an MDF plant quite a few years ago, and we had some problems with a hydraulic systems contaminated with water.
A company was engaged to clean up the hydraulics, and they took the opportunity to try to market their additive laden greases.
So they called a meeting with senior people there...and pulled out a timken machine.
"Get us a sample of your best grease, and we'll show you that our grease is better."
Went to the store and got some of the Kluber stuff that they used on the presses. Some high faluting high viscosity fire proof synthetic fluid that acts as a carrier for solid lubricants which made up about 50-60% of its volume.
Funny to watch the back-pedalling.
A company was engaged to clean up the hydraulics, and they took the opportunity to try to market their additive laden greases.
So they called a meeting with senior people there...and pulled out a timken machine.
"Get us a sample of your best grease, and we'll show you that our grease is better."
Went to the store and got some of the Kluber stuff that they used on the presses. Some high faluting high viscosity fire proof synthetic fluid that acts as a carrier for solid lubricants which made up about 50-60% of its volume.
Funny to watch the back-pedalling.
"I went back...and got a cup of my special additive...mine was bleach."
"...two guys that came back to the slickster's booth the next day with an unspecified liquid...it was shampoo."
"I wet my index finger in my mouth...and rubbed it somewhat vigorously on a small area of it"
What would have been even funnier would be to have first described the liquids as "sodium hypochlorite," "sodium lauryl sulfate," and "a water-mucin-enzyme solution," respectively. Watch the snake oil salesmen utter, "Oh, wow...that ______ stuff really works!" Then state the respective common names bleach, shampoo, and spit.
"...two guys that came back to the slickster's booth the next day with an unspecified liquid...it was shampoo."
"I wet my index finger in my mouth...and rubbed it somewhat vigorously on a small area of it"
What would have been even funnier would be to have first described the liquids as "sodium hypochlorite," "sodium lauryl sulfate," and "a water-mucin-enzyme solution," respectively. Watch the snake oil salesmen utter, "Oh, wow...that ______ stuff really works!" Then state the respective common names bleach, shampoo, and spit.
I have seen these demonstrations of some supposed super additive using Falex machines. The next time I see one I will simply walk away. The test does not really test motor oils and the tests can be faked easily. The four ball test is also not considered a good test of motor oil. The four ball test is useful in developing a motor oil, but not in comparing motor oils.
I believe in less and less stuff all the time. One of the very few automotive products I believe in is Auto-RX. I believe in a few fuel system cleaners. And not a whole lot more.
The same is true for a lot of things. People are always talking about some super new technology for gun lubrication, for example. I have tried lots of products and there are only a few that really seem to make a difference. Sometimes I think we could return to old Hoppes No. 9 and Hoppes gun oil and be just as well off, unless we were soldiers in Afganistan or Iraq. And we would be better off with more money to spend.
I believe in less and less stuff all the time. One of the very few automotive products I believe in is Auto-RX. I believe in a few fuel system cleaners. And not a whole lot more.
The same is true for a lot of things. People are always talking about some super new technology for gun lubrication, for example. I have tried lots of products and there are only a few that really seem to make a difference. Sometimes I think we could return to old Hoppes No. 9 and Hoppes gun oil and be just as well off, unless we were soldiers in Afganistan or Iraq. And we would be better off with more money to spend.
The Timken, Falex, and 4-ball machines do show some interesting and valid results. They also easily show phony results. The bleach or shampoo do perform well on the machine but do not perform well long term in machinery
If you ever get a chance to put your hand on the machine while it is being demonstrated with the "before" oil, just let your hand rest on the handle with light pressure. BS the guy while you're doing this. The heat generated will cause the antiwear agents in the oil to plate on the rollers, but will take longer than the stuff he's selling. You'll know what's happening by the sound. Don't let it squeal. If it finally runs quiet with good pressure...you're there!
Ken
If you ever get a chance to put your hand on the machine while it is being demonstrated with the "before" oil, just let your hand rest on the handle with light pressure. BS the guy while you're doing this. The heat generated will cause the antiwear agents in the oil to plate on the rollers, but will take longer than the stuff he's selling. You'll know what's happening by the sound. Don't let it squeal. If it finally runs quiet with good pressure...you're there!
Ken
These are all accepted ASTM bench tests for lubricants:
1) Timken bearing test - used with to determine the load carrying capability of greases. I believe testing continues with higher loads until failure occurs
2) Falex Test - used for EP gear lubricants and auto transmission fluids. Both are required as part of the Mercon V spec. Testing at increased loads until siezure/galling occurs
3) Shell Four Ball Wear Test - used for all types of liquid lubricants, including engine oils, gear lubes,ATF, hydraulic fluids and industrial compressor oils. Four different "fixed load" parameters used, depending on the application:
Para 1: 40kg/75C/1200 rpms for 1 hour
Para 2: 60kg/75C/1200 rpms for 1 hour
Para 3: 40kg/150C/1800 rpms for 1 hour
Para 4: 60kg/150C/1800 rpms for 1 hour
Specific test protocols can be found on the ASTM website. However if you're not a member of the "American Society for Testing of Materials" it's costly to download the specifics of each test.
Tooslick
1) Timken bearing test - used with to determine the load carrying capability of greases. I believe testing continues with higher loads until failure occurs
2) Falex Test - used for EP gear lubricants and auto transmission fluids. Both are required as part of the Mercon V spec. Testing at increased loads until siezure/galling occurs
3) Shell Four Ball Wear Test - used for all types of liquid lubricants, including engine oils, gear lubes,ATF, hydraulic fluids and industrial compressor oils. Four different "fixed load" parameters used, depending on the application:
Para 1: 40kg/75C/1200 rpms for 1 hour
Para 2: 60kg/75C/1200 rpms for 1 hour
Para 3: 40kg/150C/1800 rpms for 1 hour
Para 4: 60kg/150C/1800 rpms for 1 hour
Specific test protocols can be found on the ASTM website. However if you're not a member of the "American Society for Testing of Materials" it's costly to download the specifics of each test.
Tooslick
Shouldn't the Shell 4-ball test be called the Amsoil 4-ball test? There's a dealer around here that really talks up the scar size from different oils. What's this test really worth and what does in mean in the overall picutre of engine lubrication?
I recall seeing almost an identical video some time ago, but that time it was Slick 50 that was being tested. Needless to say, it passed the test while the other products failed.
I don’t buy these demos for a second, but I do wonder what the trick is. Anyone have any ideas? How do they get their product to pass while others fail?
Kang,
Ken hit the nail on the head with his take.
Notice the oils/additives that fail, and they are loaded up pretty quickly.
The bitron is loaded quite a bit slower...note on the water and dirt tests, they keep the pressure on (friction faces hot) while they add the contaminant.
Ken hit the nail on the head with his take.
Notice the oils/additives that fail, and they are loaded up pretty quickly.
The bitron is loaded quite a bit slower...note on the water and dirt tests, they keep the pressure on (friction faces hot) while they add the contaminant.
I always enjoyed going to the "carnival side show" area of the New York Auto Show to see all of these kinds of demonstrations.
One of my favorite was the faded hood from the junkyard car, and the paint was made to look new by the miracle polish/cleaner/wax. Then the carnival barker would spray some kind of high vapor pressure hydrocarbon fluid on the paint, set it on fire, and after it went out, the paint was undamaged.
Miracle glues and adhesives that could hold tons of force only a few seconds after application of a drop or two were also very popular products.
One of my favorite was the faded hood from the junkyard car, and the paint was made to look new by the miracle polish/cleaner/wax. Then the carnival barker would spray some kind of high vapor pressure hydrocarbon fluid on the paint, set it on fire, and after it went out, the paint was undamaged.
Miracle glues and adhesives that could hold tons of force only a few seconds after application of a drop or two were also very popular products.
LOL! I did a demo debunking this one too at a county fair. They were demonstrating a powdered paint sealant called "Perma Seal" that looked like dried diatomaceous earth (DE) and nothing more. They did the lighter fluid test, and I laughed at the guy. He was somewhat ticked off and asked me what was so funny, so I took the lighter fluid, and applied it to my hand and lit it while standing there with a big grin on my face.
I also like the demo where they take aluminum shrapnel and apply hydrochloric acid to it and it smokes and dissolves right on the "sealed" painted surface and the residue wipes right off. Big deal...I've accidentally gotten HCI on paint when using it to clean my aluminum exhaust tips and nothing really happened.
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