Slick 50 problem solved?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
16,413
Location
Canada
On the general BITOG site, under "moly basics", there is this statement:

"Engineers and scientists have tried for years to use Moly in motor oils but they have been unsuccessful because they could not find a way to keep Moly in suspension. Once Moly was put into suspension it would gradually settle out. It was easy to see it come out of suspension because a black sludge would collect on the bottom of the oil containers. In engines it would settle to the bottom of the crankcase or clog oil pathways and filters.

Engineers have overcome these obstacles. They have developed a process that keeps Moly in suspension and isn't filtered out. Since that time the product has undergone extensive independent testing in labs and in the field for many years to insure that the product stands up to the rigorous needs of today's engines. With the plating action of Moly reducing friction which reduces heat, this helps keep rings free from carbon buildup, prevents blow-by, decreases emission, and extends oil life."

In another post on this site, on Slick 50 being in Q-S oil, Johnny made this statement:

"Now, to the Teflon issue. Slick 50 is no longer made with powered particles as in the old days. You do not have to shake it up and no particles settle in to the bottom of the bottle. We all know about powered moly and soluable moly, well this is soluable teflon if that's what you want to call it. It is not purchased from DuPont, so I'm not even sure if it is teflon. I don't believe claims are being made that it last any longer than the oil change. It sure as heck won't plug a filter or oil passages or cause oil starvation. Heck, it might even help gas mileage by 1/2%."

This sounds like the same problem - at one point, engineers couldn't keep metals/substances like these in suspension. Now that they are able to for both products, doesn't it make them both safe, friction reducing oil/engine treatment?

On this site, people in general seem to think of moly in oil and treatments as a good additive to reduce friction. So why not Slick 50, if the same problem that once affected moly, and has been solved, has also been done for PTFE in Slick 50? Or is it one of those things that will take time, as with moly?
 
welcome.gif


quote:

This sounds like the same problem - at one point, engineers couldn't keep metals/substances like these in suspension. Now that they are able to for both products, doesn't it make them both safe, friction reducing oil/engine treatment?

On this site, people in general seem to think of moly in oil and treatments as a good additive to reduce friction. So why not Slick 50, if the same problem that once affected moly, and has been solved, has also been done for PTFE in Slick 50? Or is it one of those things that will take time, as with moly?

Recommend you read some white papers first in the Science and Technology of Oils and Lubricant Additives Section as I think your information is dated.

1.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000353

2.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000032#000001

Powdered Moly Di-Sulfide is used in gear lubes and does quite well for that application.

As per the first link, the molybdenum used in motor oils and hydraulic fluids is a soluble form ot moly that is used as a friction reducer, anti-wear agent, and an anti-oxidant.

Teflon has never proved itself as a lubricant when suspended as small particles in an oil. Teflon in greases and gear lubes CAN be used as a sound deadener or thickener, but that is the extent of its usefullness in lubricants.
 
I really appreciate the information, and I do admit, I have no background or ability in chemistry, so I was taking a somewhat ignorant, surface look at what was being said.

I understand what is in the posts, but I still don't understand why teflon can't become a 'proven lubricanting agent', now that the issue of making it soluable in liquid has been 'solved'? I mean, it is a very slippery substance (Guinessess..etc..), so if you could make it a soluable form, like moly is, wouldn't it do the same thing?

Or is the chemical composition of PTFE such that it just doesn't do that? I'm not trying to be block-headed, I guess I'm just curious how much different it is from Moly? Does it resist shearing, or plate to a surface?

I'm prolly getting in over my head with chemistry I won't understand any time soon, but I appreciate your time....
 
I'm no chemist, but from what Ive read here, the problem with PTFE is that it breaks down into hydrochloric acid. I'm sure if I've gotten this wrong I'll be corrected by some one who knows more.
 
Teflon is a solid, and takes considerable heat to bond to pans etc, much higher than is reached in an engine. Someone came up with the gimmick to put put very fine particles into oil, but it is still in solid form. Now in spite of that I have to admit that I am totally baffled by the current marketing of teflon in bathroom cleaners and the like, even Dupont is marketing it. It boggles the mind.....
 
quote:

Originally posted by andyd:
I'm no chemist, but from what Ive read here, the problem with PTFE is that it breaks down into hydrochloric acid. I'm sure if I've gotten this wrong I'll be corrected by some one who knows more.

The acid formation you speak is from Chlornated parraffins or waxes used in goof ball additives.

PTFE will not bond to oily metal and as such will not impregnate and lubricate bearings and it will aglomorate and clog filters etc.
bruce
 
Teflon oil additives and teflon filled filters were sold for years. I could only imagine how many 10's of thousands of quarts were sold in the last 10 years.
And, I never saw a clogged oil filter caused by teflon. Has anyone seen a teflon clogged filter directly caused by the teflon? I don't think so!
 
Teflon is a very hard substance ..at least as far as plastic-like stuff goes. It isn't even softened until about 500-550 degrees. When tubing is extruded using teflon, the screw and other items have to be made of special material due to the wear that it causes to them. Hammerlite (?) is one such material. It does not "gell" easily. If you reach a temp that would make teflon an applicable material ..anything that it's reaching/touching is already toast. Your oil is boiling/volitalizing/coaking.

So, at best, I figure that it will give you 15-30 more seconds before your engine grenades in a catostrophic failure. Before that, all that I can see it doing, even if it was down in the 1-2um size particle, would be to act like bird shot bouncing around knocking off softer materials as it circulates in the oil.

Teflon hard ..bearings soft.
 
The MSDS for Slick 50 still says it has a 1-5% dispersion of PFTE, i.e. Teflon. I was reading the label on a bottle of Slick 50 and it says it "changes the metallurgy at the surface"! If that isn't marketing garbage I don't know what is. Anyone know how you can change the metallurgy by pouring in a quart of anything??
 
Seems like lately, here at Bitog, Slick 50 is getting “beat on like a drum”!
grin.gif


Being curious, I did some google research & forward what I’ve run across that appears interesting.

Slick 50 was the market leader, back in 1997, with about $80 million in engine additive sales, when the FTC issued the cease & desist order on false advertising. Others had jumped into this PTFE engine additive market and little is reported about a similar FTC ruling on Valvoline with their TM-8 PTFE product.

http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/10/ashland.htm

The Tufoil Engine Treatment site pegs the PTFE particle size found in their treatment as 0.5 to 0.05 microns. A major supplier of PTFE additives lists the size as 0.4 to 0.8 microns.

Shamrock Technologies PTFE Products

If the majority of filters are rated at 25 microns & have little effect on the 2-5 micron size particles in the oil stream, how likely is it that these 10 times smaller PTFE particles will clog a filter?
 
PTFE will not bond to engine parts. Heck you can't even keep it on a frying pan, with a primer.
I think the initial thought might have been to put a grain or two between meshing gears, to avoid metal to metal contact. Could probably do the same with saw dust. PTFE has no place in a motor or a frying pan. Although I must admit that some wonderful seal materials have been developed.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Teflon is a very hard substance..... When tubing is extruded using teflon, the screw and other items have to be made of special material due to the wear that it causes to them.....

Gary, are you sure the material and problem you're citing doesn't have glass filler in it? Most of the teflon than comes through my lab for analysis has glass filler in it, which can be very abrasive.
 
Are you trying to tell me that additives on the shelves of auto parts stores don't work exactly as claimed on the label? Is the best that I can hope is that the one I choose does no damage?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom