Something to be said about the old S&W 669 which is double-action. I'd rather have a first shot heavy trigger pull and know it was totally safe to carry with one in the chamber than not. Yes, I like your seat belt analogy ... but it would be like trying to buckle the seat belt when you were 20 ft from a wall before hitting it head on at 60 MPH.
Sig Sauer P320 - Self Discharge Reports
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Something to be said about the old S&W 669 which is double-action. I'd rather have a first shot heavy trigger pull and know it was totally safe to carry with one in the chamber than not. Yes, I like your seat belt analogy ... but it would be like trying to buckle the seat belt when you were 20 ft from a wall before hitting it head on at 60 MPH.
You're talking about the second generation Smith & Wesson automatic. I am a big fan. Great guns. The third generation is even better. The design was refined a bit.
I own a 6906 (next generation of the 669) and it's a well-made, exceedingly safe firearm. Disconnects prevent firing if the magazine is removed. The safety is a decocker and blocks the hammer from contacting the firing pin, while also disconnecting the trigger.
But that gun is heavy (lots of steel in the construction, even with the alloy frame) and it costs a great deal more to manufacture that metal frame than the polymer frames offered in the marketplace today.
S&W didn't stop making the 3rd gens because they wanted to, the market changed. That 6906 (or 669) would cost $1,500 - $1,800 to make today.
How could it possibly compete against a $600 polymer frame Sig or Glock?
A well made firearm. I would be OK carrying this one anywhere.
However, the safety adds a step to the “manual of arms” required to employ it.
That requires additional training and increases the risk that the user will fail to get off a rapid first shot.
I’ve watched it happen in training with the Beretta M9. Experienced, highly trained fighter pilot failed to get the safety off in a scenario in a shooting simulation.
I went through half a magazine before the threat was stopped. I looked over at my buddy, who hadn’t fired a single shot and said, “hey man! What happened to the back up!!??”
“Something’s wrong with my gun!” Was the reply.
Yeah....something was wrong... the safety was still in “safe”.
Under pressure, a safety can be detrimental to even the most experienced, trained shooter.
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^^^ Not sure about your S&W 6906 Astro, but my 669 allows the hammer to be 1/4 cocked with the safety off so the trigger can be pulled (initial long and heavy pull) to fire if someone was willing to carry it that way.
The 3rd generation can be carried with the safety off, no quarter cocked notch.
On my 6906 (and 5906, 4006, and 4506) it is still a long, deliberate double action first pull.*. Subsequent shots, a crisp single action. For target practice, you could cock the hammer fully (safety off) and get the SA trigger feel.
*The standard fire control system for that generation was: hammer and DA/SA + Safety/decocker. In about 1990, S&W started offering DAO, in which every shot was a long, heavy trigger pull, or a DA/SA w/decocker only. No safety.
The infamous FBI gun, the S&W 1076 was a third generation DA/SA w/decocker.
On my 6906 (and 5906, 4006, and 4506) it is still a long, deliberate double action first pull.*. Subsequent shots, a crisp single action. For target practice, you could cock the hammer fully (safety off) and get the SA trigger feel.
*The standard fire control system for that generation was: hammer and DA/SA + Safety/decocker. In about 1990, S&W started offering DAO, in which every shot was a long, heavy trigger pull, or a DA/SA w/decocker only. No safety.
The infamous FBI gun, the S&W 1076 was a third generation DA/SA w/decocker.
Average defensive encounter: 3 yards, 3 rounds, 3 seconds.
Good luck dave
I carry wheel guns mostly so that is moot.
When I carry an auto its in condition 1 or 2 99.9% of the time.
The time to drop a thumb/hammer safety is about a tenth of a second and its down before the weapon is lined up on the target so also moot.
Everyone is free to carry as they see fit, but everyone of these incidents would have been avoided if conditon 1 were chosen over 0.
Dave
When I carry an auto its in condition 1 or 2 99.9% of the time.
The time to drop a thumb/hammer safety is about a tenth of a second and its down before the weapon is lined up on the target so also moot.
Everyone is free to carry as they see fit, but everyone of these incidents would have been avoided if conditon 1 were chosen over 0.
Dave
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Uncle Dave, please define “condition 1” carry with the Sig in question, a striker- fired weapon with no manual or grip safety. You argue that a “condition 1 carry” could’ve prevented these incidents.
I’m really having trouble following your condition definitions, which, as I understand them, apply to a 1911.
In the case of a striker fired pistol, if the striker is "cocked" and ready to drop, then it would essentially be analogous to a gun with a cocked hammer that's ready to drop with a trigger pull. But you can't really do a true Condition 2 on a striker fired pistol because if the striker was down, you'd have to cycle the slide to get the striker in the cocked condition. You could do Condition 2 on your or my older DA S&W.
Condition 2: A round is chambered, a magazine is inserted and the hammer is down.
Condition 1: A round is chambered, a magazine is inserted, and the hammer is cocked with the safety engaged.
Commonly referred to as “cocked and locked,” the only thing the gun owner must do after drawing the pistol is disengage the safety. This is something that requires training to do smoothly and regularly in a self-defense situation.
Condition 1 is the most popular method for anyone who carries a single action only pistol like a 1911. It makes some people nervous to see a gun’s hammer carried while cocked, but in a 1911, two safeties — the grip and the thumb — have to be disengaged for the pistol to fire.
Condition 0: A round is chambered, a magazine is inserted, and the hammer is cocked with the safety off.
In condition zero, all that has to happen to fire a round is a simple trigger pull. With a pistol like the 1911, which is known for its light, crisp trigger, that’s not a condition most carriers are comfortable with. Still, the pistol’s grip safety has to be disengaged.
At the same time, people who carry a GLOCK, M&P, XD or other striker-fired gun with no external safety are essentially carrying in Condition 0.
Source: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-5-handgun-carry-conditions-which-one-do-you-use/
Condition 2: A round is chambered, a magazine is inserted and the hammer is down.
Condition 1: A round is chambered, a magazine is inserted, and the hammer is cocked with the safety engaged.
Commonly referred to as “cocked and locked,” the only thing the gun owner must do after drawing the pistol is disengage the safety. This is something that requires training to do smoothly and regularly in a self-defense situation.
Condition 1 is the most popular method for anyone who carries a single action only pistol like a 1911. It makes some people nervous to see a gun’s hammer carried while cocked, but in a 1911, two safeties — the grip and the thumb — have to be disengaged for the pistol to fire.
Condition 0: A round is chambered, a magazine is inserted, and the hammer is cocked with the safety off.
In condition zero, all that has to happen to fire a round is a simple trigger pull. With a pistol like the 1911, which is known for its light, crisp trigger, that’s not a condition most carriers are comfortable with. Still, the pistol’s grip safety has to be disengaged.
At the same time, people who carry a GLOCK, M&P, XD or other striker-fired gun with no external safety are essentially carrying in Condition 0.
Source: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-5-handgun-carry-conditions-which-one-do-you-use/
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To your point you cant really with that sig. No de-cocker either. Its either in 0 or 3 like my glock 26.
It would have been more accurate to say these accidents would have been avoided using a condtion 1 capable gun, or keeping the sig in 3.
Conditions apply to hammer guns & wheel guns best - striker pin guns blur the condition lines somewhat.
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Or a sig 320 to Astros point as it has no external saftey or de-cocker.
Mechanical issues aside for the moment, I still ascribe at least a third to a half of the overall responsibility/liability for these "accidents" to the person for a variety of reasons but the main ones are: ( We all take shortcuts and momentarily forget things and sometimes take things for granted but we are conditioned to think in terms of "perfection" on things like safety/ law etc. where such things like " ignorance is no excuse" and "always exercise muzzle control" and all those other "absolutes" that no human could do 100% of the time)
Also understanding ( and supporting) their 'absolute right' to select the weapon of choice, carry device and condition......
They should know better than to handle any weapon ( especially knowingly loaded and charged) in any configuration where a discharge could reasonably cause injury or a round going into the public. ( a little reasonable flexibility for legitimate for firefights and riding in vehicles etc.)
They ( being an "alleged' trained person in handling of a weapon) should know and take additional steps accordingly for striker fire weapons because of the known unique additional risks that particular design class has built in. After all, many of them pontificate themselves as "trained professionals" so let that training and professionalism be reflected in their firearms handling.
As far as excuses- based mainly on my own experiences and training, there is a degree of "confusion" ( sensory overload, hesitancy, indecision, pure fear, head thumping and just plain "white thought" where everything goes blank) in every firefight but the adversary has those same things too so those "stories' about reaction times and all that sound good but don't have any bearing on reality.
If any person with years of repeated Infantry and MOUT training in various MOS's is still subject to all things human (lizard brain included) for a brief period- it is certainly going to happen to those lesser trained ( maybe not with a person under the influence/mentally disturbed)
In no way is that an "out" for any "weak"/bad/wrong/faulty design that is proven to be so but that weapon can only do what its designed to do and even then only to the level that its properly maintained and handled- the human is the one with the brain.
I hold the human to the higher standard.
Also understanding ( and supporting) their 'absolute right' to select the weapon of choice, carry device and condition......
They should know better than to handle any weapon ( especially knowingly loaded and charged) in any configuration where a discharge could reasonably cause injury or a round going into the public. ( a little reasonable flexibility for legitimate for firefights and riding in vehicles etc.)
They ( being an "alleged' trained person in handling of a weapon) should know and take additional steps accordingly for striker fire weapons because of the known unique additional risks that particular design class has built in. After all, many of them pontificate themselves as "trained professionals" so let that training and professionalism be reflected in their firearms handling.
As far as excuses- based mainly on my own experiences and training, there is a degree of "confusion" ( sensory overload, hesitancy, indecision, pure fear, head thumping and just plain "white thought" where everything goes blank) in every firefight but the adversary has those same things too so those "stories' about reaction times and all that sound good but don't have any bearing on reality.
If any person with years of repeated Infantry and MOUT training in various MOS's is still subject to all things human (lizard brain included) for a brief period- it is certainly going to happen to those lesser trained ( maybe not with a person under the influence/mentally disturbed)
In no way is that an "out" for any "weak"/bad/wrong/faulty design that is proven to be so but that weapon can only do what its designed to do and even then only to the level that its properly maintained and handled- the human is the one with the brain.
I hold the human to the higher standard.
Crap holster design - trigger and gaurd needs to be totally enclosed. I'd be surprised if that holster maker didn't get sued if that was indeed the holster they specified for that pistol. People that make accessories need to run the gamut of possible safety "what ifs" before putting it on the market. It doesn't look like that pistol could move anymore forward enough to pull the trigger all the way back to cause a discharge, but who knows without it in hand.
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Remington Under Fire
Remington insists its gun is safe, but allegations and lawsuits point to a trail of death and thousands of complaints.
www.cnbc.com
Remington Under Fire
Remington insists its gun is safe, but allegations and lawsuits point to a trail of death and thousands of complaints.
Ive witnessed this in person BTW. A friend had one those Remington rifles they talk about in that story, and I watched him load the magazine with 4 or 5 cartridges, close the bolt to chamber a round (with his finger NOT on the trigger), and that thing went off right in front of both of us.
Neither of us was expecting it of course, so it scared the living daylights out of both of us. He was practicing gun safety though and had the barrel pointed away from anything alive. The only damage was to our undershorts, both had to be discarded!
As have I and had to service a few. Additionally, I have modified and built a few dozen and have all prints and numerous modifications for this specific weapon. ( for my own pending production) I was also a stocking dealer for Remington for quite a few years.
I point this out to illustrate a few critical points regarding the SIG situation.
First, no machine is fool proof or incapable of either a malfunction ( built right but something isn't 100%) or some form of accident. Guns are no different.
This design however cannot be legitimately used to shore up ( or refute) any similar claim of firing without command for the SIG because the designs are radically different so none of the causes or contributions or scenarios can be compared.
On the 700, there is no "design defect" ( defined by the correct usage of the terms) but it has been noted as being on the "edge" of mechanical integrity. ( a very gray, vague, non-descript and difficult to define area)- the problem is that "mechanical integrity" is virtually impossible to define and measure so its equally hard to design something against all possible scenarios.
( like some say about "safety"[ another industrial "Holy "Grail"]- The only "safe" plant is one shut down where all possibilities of injury are eliminated". But nobody likes or wants that level of "safety")
Is that an excuse for accidents, injury, malfunctions all? Not in the slightest or in any way. But "fake news" and "biased reporting" are not the golden standards of truth- The facts are.
How many of these "alleged malfunctions" are in fact the result of unsafe handling practices, a weapon worn, maybe a MODIFICATION ( theres a BIG root cause)- that's a big issue because people tend to read and remember the headline claim, not the final verdict.
Remember, no brand wants their name in lights for negative issues ( and expense) but each malfunction (resulting in injury/damage) has to be judged on the individual merits and let responsibility be divided as appropriate.
If the 700 was so "badly designed", one would have to believe the millions out there over the decades ( not to mention precision shooters, snipers, military etc.) would have banned it by now by public refusing to purchase it.( the ultimate punishment) Nowhere does that state or imply that malfunctions cannot or will not occur.
I would like someone to show me any device made by man that doesn't malfunction, wear or break or even have undesired actions in some scenarios.
To another point, many of these "hair triggers" and designs "very subject to shock" ( to be polite) are a result of the demands by the CONSUMERS ( yeah, us) for light action ( accuracy),smooth length of pull, travel etc., smaller actions, faster cycle time and all that. It cant be both ways.
Theres trade offs on those things ( like thin oils and MOFT affecting engine wear). Tire manufacturers can make a 500,000 mile tire that will never run flat but you wont like the ride or handling.
All I'm doing is keeping the scales balanced
This clown is one of many many millions out there that are incapable of safely carrying a defensive firearm safely, and should not do it.
I keep a loaded .380 in a pocket holster in the bedroom night stand. My primary defensive firearm (9mm) is either in the nightstand or on me. It stays loaded 99% of the time. No need to fiddle with it.
When I go shooting with it I pull it out of the holster (not on my belt). I then drop the mag and remove the cartridge from the chamber. It goes to the range unloaded (that 1%). Unless you are taking a dump it should not come out of the holster on your belt.
But..like I said........ If you are not doing this consider training.
Only point it at something you intend to shoot.
Keep your finger off the trigger
Keep unloaded until you are ready to use.
The 3 golden rules of the NRA
I keep a loaded .380 in a pocket holster in the bedroom night stand. My primary defensive firearm (9mm) is either in the nightstand or on me. It stays loaded 99% of the time. No need to fiddle with it.
When I go shooting with it I pull it out of the holster (not on my belt). I then drop the mag and remove the cartridge from the chamber. It goes to the range unloaded (that 1%). Unless you are taking a dump it should not come out of the holster on your belt.
But..like I said........ If you are not doing this consider training.
Only point it at something you intend to shoot.
Keep your finger off the trigger
Keep unloaded until you are ready to use.
The 3 golden rules of the NRA
HA! So USArmy said nah but its my choice?!!!
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