Sick of the quality of new products

[Tempest]

What does "well made" mean exactly?

Is this well made:

Are modern tractors that are used instead of the older tractor "less" well made?

You have to look at the entire picture. If everything was made of heavy metal like "Ol'irn" used to be made, then there wouldn't be as much innovation and new products introduced.

Does your toaster look like this?

Ultimately, producers produce what people will buy for a given price point. If people were willing to spend $5k on a dishwasher, they would probably be much better than they are today, but people won't pay that...or at least not many. Compare what the inflation adjusted price of things today are vs. what things were in the past and one's perspective should change.

And cars today can easily last 2-3-4-5 hundred K and still be viable. Is that true of cars just a few decades ago?

 

[greenjp]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Are there engineers out there whose job is to design the stuff so as it will break immediately after the warranty expires? I had always guessed so but so far I have not come across a single engineer who is personally involved in this practice.

I don't think so, and I'm skeptical of the story above. The fact that most commercial goods aren't designed to last forever, or even for decades, does not mean they're designed to fail AT some particular point. It's a tradeoff, product cost vs. durability/reliability. If the company wants to sell it for $X, they need to produce it for some fraction of that. Durable materials, motors, components, assembly methods that enable maintenance and repair, etc cost money. Anyone think a $99 Walmart Hoover is going to be as durable as an old school $1,000 Electrolux? It's not because the cheap one is designed to break per se, but rather that it's not designed to be as durable/reliable. It might sound like semantics but there's a difference.

jeff
F

 

[eljefino]

Low lead solder seems to fatigue eventually and where printed circuit boards meet pins or other attachments seems to fail after around ten years from vibration. Am sure there's better solder but they don't want to pay for it.

Same with capacitors drying out and going screwy. This happened to chinese computer power supplies a few years back and are suspect whenever some cheap toy goes tango uniform. The real trick is to try and blame the user, for letting it stay plugged in during a thunderstorm etc.

I was checking out some older sandbox toys. Junk! One stamping of metal, very poorly finished, poorly painted, and poor detail of the truck it was trying to be. Compare to a plastic toy with detailed undercarriage, realistic licensed graphics, etc. They could make cheap things back in the day too, it's just our memories only retain the good things. They had Justin Beiber esque pop music in the 1950s; we forgot it and listen to Sinatra.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Seems everything these days is disposable,especially cars.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: GenSan
I find researching thoroughly before buying a $5 item or a $15,000 helps immensely w/ the quality and longevity of a product. Reading reviews on a product on internet forums helps a great deal too. You can't fix buying a lemon though.

Generally speaking, a quality product will cost more initially but the quality and longevity will more than pay for itself in the long run. If the company knows it built a good product they should stand behind it with a good warranty.


Also don't forget today's design cycle is a lot shorter, so ground breaking new products and technologies may not be completely tested before pushing out the door. They tends to fail for a few cycles or generations before they get that right (i.e. Hard Drives whenever they put in new "tech" to increase space, or transmissions, or fuel injection system, or emission control system, etc).

Them German seems to be the usual suspect in this and they are not cheap or doing it to save money. Like you said research is your friend.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: badtlc
Originally Posted By: The Critic
.....
I have also found that the Country of Origin has little effect on the product's performance. As long as you are purchasing a quality product from a reputable manufacturer, this Country of Origin should not make a difference. I have had no unexpected issues with off-shore products.


This part is often overlooked yet so critical. Companies are responsible for quality control, not country of origin. You can implement the same level of process reliability and quality anywhere in the world now days. 6 sigma has allowed companies to refine processes to the point that high quality and reliability can be achieved ragardless of location. If you stick to quality companies, they will give you a quality product.


In some way yes, but 6 sigma doesn't tell you about yield you can expect and therefore the willingness to push marginal quality products into the channel to take a chance.

I personally don't think companies intentionally design bad products unless they save money, because usually long term durability correlates with short term reliability, and intentionally make them last shorter would make your customer less happy, right away.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: greenjp
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Are there engineers out there whose job is to design the stuff so as it will break immediately after the warranty expires? I had always guessed so but so far I have not come across a single engineer who is personally involved in this practice.

I don't think so, and I'm skeptical of the story above. The fact that most commercial goods aren't designed to last forever, or even for decades, does not mean they're designed to fail AT some particular point. It's a tradeoff, product cost vs. durability/reliability. If the company wants to sell it for $X, they need to produce it for some fraction of that. Durable materials, motors, components, assembly methods that enable maintenance and repair, etc cost money. Anyone think a $99 Walmart Hoover is going to be as durable as an old school $1,000 Electrolux? It's not because the cheap one is designed to break per se, but rather that it's not designed to be as durable/reliable. It might sound like semantics but there's a difference.

jeff
F


As someone who sometimes was ordered to design borderline products in the previous jobs. I can tell you that it is usually done as a side effect to cost savings.

Usually, the boss, or bean counters, would tell you that they need to sell it cheaper to compete with others or to steal customers from others, so they say why not use this instead of that (usually plastic instead of metal) or use a new, cheaper system instead of an in house developed system. In paper they work greats, and you agree with them, and you design a system that in theory would work just as good or the customers would never notice the difference.

In practice there are corner cases that is not in spec. Usually it is a sudden temperature, voltage, vibration shock, harsh condition, chemical tolerance, user abuse, or just simply fail safe in case of design error in one section chain reaction into a huge problem elsewhere. When that happen, sometimes a $2 parts saving or a $20 labor savings turn into a $200 custom parts or $2000 rework, or a $2M order cancellation.

Well why don't companies pay the $2 parts or $20 labor up front? Because there are likely 50-100 of them all over the places and they add up. Most of the time they work as expected, but that one that doesn't work could cost you your businesses, so could the customers you lose if you don't follow your competitors by doing it.

This is why very often if your competitors or vendor of your competitors are willing to sell you the parts or license a certain design, you should go ahead and buy it or license it, just to reduce the relative risks. If everyone in the industry has the same problem because of the same parts or design, you would be much more lucky than if you are the only one.

 

[L_Sludger]

I've had good luck with the things I've bought. I save my money and buy high quality stuff. Some new, some used. You just have to know what works and what's garbage.

 

[Doog]

I only buy non-union made stuff and it seems to last forever..

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: Doog
I only buy non-union made stuff and it seems to last forever..

Cute.


Anyways, nobody takes in to consideration the user?

Back then, people also took better care of their stuff.


Let me see, 10 year old car, 11 year old DVD player, 11 year old TV, nearly 60 year old built in oven.....


Some care is required.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: daves87rs

Anyways, nobody takes in to consideration the user?

Back then, people also took better care of their stuff.


Let me see, 10 year old car, 11 year old DVD player, 11 year old TV, nearly 60 year old built in oven.....


Some care is required.


These days I'm trying to figure out if I should take care of my vehicle (or other items) with the intention of being able to pass along to the next person w/o guilt. Hard to justify taking care of something though if you know you're going to toss it out when it's worn out. But if I'm not going to run a car into the ground, then it might pay (literally) when I sell it off.

Problem is, though, when repairs exceed replacement cost--let alone the value of the item, I'm talking replacement--it is hard to expect something to last forever. Then toss in energy savings, or obsolesence (computers that won't run the latest software, VHS being a dead technology, etc). If anything, it becomes tempting to be glad when something wears out, because now you can replace it with "better".

 

[rshaw125]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Seems everything these days is disposable,especially cars.


On the contrary. Cars last longer than they ever have. Years ago at less than 100,000 miles they were in the junk yard. I know several people who drive cars that have well over 200,000 miles on them.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Seems everything these days is disposable,especially cars.


On the contrary. Cars last longer than they ever have. Years ago at less than 100,000 miles they were in the junk yard. I know several people who drive cars that have well over 200,000 miles on them.


And most will dispose of the car if the transmission breaks, or anything else expensive, especially with those miles. It's just disposed of at much higher miles than before.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Seems everything these days is disposable,especially cars.


On the contrary. Cars last longer than they ever have. Years ago at less than 100,000 miles they were in the junk yard. I know several people who drive cars that have well over 200,000 miles on them.


Reason cars have more miles on them these days is that commuting is more commonplace that it was in the 50s-70s. For example,I`m from a small town,have a car that`s 17 years old,is my one and only daily driver,and has 89,000 miles. I see 2 year old cars from big cities that are nearing the 200,000 mile mark. Old cars driven in that fashion would last just as long,especially since maintenance,lubricats,etc are light years ahead of what they were. Best friend had an early 70s Nova that was nearing 300,000 miles and was still impeccably reliable. Finally sold it because it was no longer needed and was just taking up space.

 

[danthaman1980]

Three words: DO YOUR RESEARCH.

Consumer Reports, internet forums, user reviews on store websites, BITOG... take it all in. All the products I have extensively researched prior to buying have been excellent.

On the other hand, most of the products I have bought without researchig, or just because 'its a good brand', have been $h!t.

Example - first and second Toshiba flat-screen LCD TVs, both 40". Researched before buying. Both excellent. Third Toshiba flat-screen LCD TV, 37", bought because the first two were good. But the 37 is [censored]. Toshiba Blu-Ray player, bought because I had so many Toshiba TVs: This blu-ray player is the worst piece of junk I have owned since my first Emerson VCR. It works - but the buttons on the player don't work (have to use the remote) and it WON'T TURN OFF! (unless of course I unplug it).

Another example - Bissel vacuum cleaner, researched extensively before buying. Has been great. Prior to that, the Dirt Devil I picked up without reasearching was [censored].

Just remember that brand name means NOTHING anymore. You have to research the MODEL NUMBER you're planning to buy.

Also - don't underestimate the value of inspecting the item thoroughly before purchasing. Doesn't work for electronics so much, but for tools and parts you can learn a lot by just taking a close look and feel.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Seems everything these days is disposable,especially cars.


On the contrary. Cars last longer than they ever have. Years ago at less than 100,000 miles they were in the junk yard. I know several people who drive cars that have well over 200,000 miles on them.


I also believe this is a bit of an illusion. Some of the longer life span can be attributed to electronics taking control over fueling, etc. and managing it much more precisely.

But the other side of the coin is lubricants are drastically better than even just a few years ago. But it is common for us to drive our fleet trucks to very high mileages without major service.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: supton
And most will dispose of the car if the transmission breaks, or anything else expensive, especially with those miles. It's just disposed of at much higher miles than before.


Bingo. Cause, at say 150k if the transmission goes, that's $2k minimum for a good rebuild. Then you're still stuck in a 150k car that is at the end of it's design life (cars are designed for 150k) and other things may/will start to go wrong.

What sense does it make to put $2k into a vehicle that is not worth $2k and will most likely need massive repairs in short order? Makes more sense to take that $2k + savings and get into something newer and/or more reliable.

 

[Vikas]

Isn't it telling that OP put the effort to put this rant here but was extremely careful as to avoid telling us which POS brand new vehicle he purchased?

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Isn't it telling that OP put the effort to put this rant here but was extremely careful as to avoid telling us which POS brand new vehicle he purchased?


2012 Kia Optima 2.4GDI

It's listed in his sig.

 

[whip]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Isn't it telling that OP put the effort to put this rant here but was extremely careful as to avoid telling us which POS brand new vehicle he purchased?


2012 Kia Optima 2.4GDI

It's listed in his sig.

Another endorsement for Hyundai/Kia reliability.......