Should we be scandalized about ETHANOL in our tank

[mareakin]

Based on what I can gather, there doesn't appear to be any technical benefits to using Ethanol, yet there is a federal mandate of 10% in our gasoline--possibly 15% in the future.

The arguments in favor of Ethanol (environmental benefits) have all been debunked.

This only leaves the Ethanol industry and jobs argument.

Should the gov'ment force insert an inferior product just to appease the Ethanol special interest?

I'm really just asking what you think. Are there benefits to Ethanol that I am not seeing?

What do you think?

 

[simple_gifts]

It was originally used in CT as an oxygenate to reduce emissions, replacing MTBE which was poisoning groundwater; this was in place probably 15 years ago. I have not seen this debunked yet.

 

[Eddie]

You are missinformed marinkin. The reason we use ethonal is to reduce our foreign oil consumption as stated by simple_gifts.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
It was originally used in CT as an oxygenate to reduce emissions, replacing MTBE which was poisoning groundwater; this was in place probably 15 years ago. I have not seen this debunked yet.



No doubt, I'll take it over that MTBE stuff. I saw a documentary once about some small towns in California that were like modern ghost towns because all the water got MTBE contamination. Yikes!

 

[JHZR2]

The reliance on foreign oil is a factoid to argue. It depends upon where you draw your "control volume" for the problem.

It does serve as an oxygenate. This is its application first and foremost, though there is surely some politicking in there to create ethanol demand, etc.

Thing is, we used to get winter and summer blend gas. Now with 10% all the time, it seems like we have winter blend gas year round.

 

[pbm]

Since ethanol became popular in fuel the price of corn related products (like dog food) have gone thru the roof. I think Mareakin is on to something.

 

[jcwit]

Not only dog food, the price for chinken has skyrocketed and other meats that are fed corn products. Price of eggs to name another. Out here in the mid-west, talk to a few farmers and find out just what its all about paying for higher priced feed for livestock.

 

[LS2JSTS]

It's the Corn farmers that get the subsidies....Maybe the Meat and Poultry farmers and the Corn farmers can work something out.....LOL.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: pbm

Since ethanol became popular in fuel the price of corn related products (like dog food) have gone thru the roof. I think Mareakin is on to something.


I live on a farm and while my main income is not from farming, the farmers have NOT seen the huge price increases that everybody here is talking about.
Look at the middlemen like ADM and Cargill and the like. While it is true that farmers do get some government subsides, the farmer really has no control over the price that they receive, they just get what the big businesses decide the farmers should get. And no, I'm not in favor of adding ethanol to gas to relieve the dependence on foreign oil because I know it does not. To control emissions.....that's another argument. But not to reduce dependence.

 

[IndyIan]

Well, in the not so distant past corn prices were ridiculously low due to government subsidies encouraging farmers to grow more that was needed at the time. So it sort of made sense to use corn as fuel since tons of corn were being wasted. I think at the same time chemists started figuring out how to use the almost free grain for all sorts of uses.
So all of a sudden there was an increase in the demand for corn for people food, ethanol, and animal feeds too. Enough to force the prices up so now it doesn't make sense to use it as fuel but all the infrastructure is there and it has the reputation for reducing green house gases.
With modern industrial farming, growing corn for ethanol is probably a net green house gas producer, but Monsanto and company pretty much set your agriculture policy so I think you'll be stuck with it for quite a while. 4 or 5 companies pretty much own your food system from seed to twinkie or chicken breast so I imagine the government won't have the guts to challege them.
Go rent Food Inc. and even though its not about ethanol directly you will get an idea of the power the companies have.

 

[rshunter]

If energy independence had anything to do with the use of ethanol, we'd be using sugar cane for its production. The production of ethanol via sugar cane is approximately 2.5 times more efficient. Using corn, as we do in the US, generates roughly 321 gallons of ethanol per acre, versus sugar cane's output of about 802 gallons.

 

[Big_Kat]

Originally Posted By: rshunter
If energy independence had anything to do with the use of ethanol, we'd be using sugar cane for its production. The production of ethanol via sugar cane is approximately 2.5 times more efficient. Using corn, as we do in the US, generates roughly 321 gallons of ethanol per acre, versus sugar cane's output of about 802 gallons.


My can't we fallow in the foot steeps of what Brazil is doing. They have been making it from sugar cane for years....

 

[Whimsey]

I seem to rememember reading that using oxygenated gas in the winter was to help cars with carburetors with their cold start pollution due to the choke enrichment. By the time it became law more and more cars began using some sort of computer controls on the fuel delivery systems, even ones with carburetors. Eventually FI and total computer control was the "norm". Cold starts are now controlled by advanced computers and EFI that carefully match the fuel needs to the engine environment to control pollution levels at all operating conditions.

Ironically Ethanol increases the NOX levels over "pure gasoline". This has become a political boondagle that enriches some and penalizes the majority with higher costs to go the same miles with dubious benefits to the environment.

That's just my thoughts though

.

Whimsey

 

[jcwit]

(quote)I live on a farm and while my main income is not from farming, the farmers have NOT seen the huge price increases that everybody here is talking about.(quote)

Try to tell that to the chicken growers here in No. Indiana. Sorry their price of feed has gone way up.

 

[LS2JSTS]

Originally Posted By: rshunter
If energy independence had anything to do with the use of ethanol, we'd be using sugar cane for its production. The production of ethanol via sugar cane is approximately 2.5 times more efficient. Using corn, as we do in the US, generates roughly 321 gallons of ethanol per acre, versus sugar cane's output of about 802 gallons.


Do we have the climate for Sugar Cane? I thought algea was the future of ethanol, from what I've seen that could be an awesome source of fuels.

 

[rshunter]

Originally Posted By: jcwit
(quote)I live on a farm and while my main income is not from farming, the farmers have NOT seen the huge price increases that everybody here is talking about.(quote)

Try to tell that to the chicken growers here in No. Indiana. Sorry their price of feed has gone way up.

He meant they weren't on the receiving end.

 

[doitmyself]

Face it, sooner or later, we will no longer enjoy the very cheap food AND fuel we have had for the past many decades in North America. Recent reports of new movie opening revenues leaves little room for us to complain about food and fuel prices.

IMO, ethanol is just one of the stop-gap measures we will develop and use for the next 50 to 100 years until we come up with a truly sustainable fuel system, which involves a LOT more than just the production of fuel.

Like all things, us men are going to botch up a lot of things during this change, on all fronts: politics, health, environment, yada, yada, yada.

Brazil has "almost" perfected it's production and use of ethanol and I suggest reading the sugar coated (pun intended) wikipedia story to discover the corny faults of our efforts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

Sweden and other countries are having some success with development of cellulosic, non food ethanol (not without problems).

No way around it. It's going to "hurt" to become energy self sufficient and it is going to take a few generations to get away from our redneck mentality about it.

 

[rshunter]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: rshunter
If energy independence had anything to do with the use of ethanol, we'd be using sugar cane for its production. The production of ethanol via sugar cane is approximately 2.5 times more efficient. Using corn, as we do in the US, generates roughly 321 gallons of ethanol per acre, versus sugar cane's output of about 802 gallons.


Do we have the climate for Sugar Cane? I thought algea was the future of ethanol, from what I've seen that could be an awesome source of fuels.

If they can grow it in Kentucky, as I know they do, I don't see how it would be a problem. If you've ever had molasses, did you notice where it was made? Molasses is derived from sugar cane.

I find the use of algae an interesting proposition, but volume sugar cane production could be put in place quickly.

 

[EagleFTE]

Originally Posted By: rshunter
If energy independence had anything to do with the use of ethanol, we'd be using sugar cane for its production. The production of ethanol via sugar cane is approximately 2.5 times more efficient. Using corn, as we do in the US, generates roughly 321 gallons of ethanol per acre, versus sugar cane's output of about 802 gallons.


Slight problem with using sugar cane though. We don't have millions upon millions of acres of sugar cane fields in the continetal US. The midwest started making and using ethonal in the late 70s / early 80s to reduce the dependancy on foreign oil by 10% following the gas crisis during the Carter administration. It was never about better or cheaper gas. It was about using what you had plenty of to reduce dependancy by 10%. Or it could just be some kind of consiracy.

 

[rshunter]

Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Face it, sooner or later, we will no longer enjoy the very cheap food AND fuel we have had for the past many decades in North America. Recent reports of new movie opening revenues leaves little room for us to complain about food and fuel prices.

IMO, ethanol is just one of the stop-gap measures we will develop and use for the next 50 to 100 years until we come up with a truly sustainable fuel system, which involves a LOT more than just the production of fuel.

Like all things, us men are going to botch up a lot of things during this change, on all fronts: politics, health, environment, yada, yada, yada.

Brazil has "almost" perfected it's production and use of ethanol and I suggest reading the sugar coated (pun intended) wikipedia story to discover the corny faults of our efforts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

Sweden and other countries are having some success with development of cellulosic, non food ethanol (not without problems).

No way around it. It's going to "hurt" to become energy self sufficient and it is going to take a few generations to get away from our redneck mentality about it.

Energy independence isn't that difficult, just switch to natural gas. There are already vehicles commercially available that use CNG. Adapting other models to utilize CNG would hardly be a major difficulty and can be built using the current production processes. It wouldn't require overcoming any major obstacles, as the implementation of battery-centric vehicles would.