Should gas stations be mandated to have chargers as well?

[Torrid]

So in other words, what you are saying is EVs will not be appealing to the masses without artificial intervention.

The marketplace has to be perturbed because consumers (who are generally rational, even if we don't understand their rationale) won't pick them in the free market.

They won't appeal to the masses who are concerned about cost, range and charging.

Therefore, government must issue mandates that FORCE consumers into a choice they would not freely make.

Doesn't sound like government has much faith in either consumers or industry.


Or, government doesn't want people making rational choices that best serve their needs or desires. Government only wants people making choices that serve the objectives of government.

That's what I got from what you wrote.

Those of us buying EVs is because it is a rational choice for us. If we aren’t buying them, CAFE numbers won’t be hit and it’ll start knocking more cars. I think the CAFE numbers have killed small cars more than anything. It’s more profitable to make a truck or SUV for that reason.

As far as infrastructure there’s no surprise that the vast majority of EVs are Teslas. They knew charging could be a pain point and have invested heavily into charging. I even have around me in small town Midwest areas. That’s one of the reasons why we bought a Tesla.

The market will work itself out on it, but that’s why everyone is signing on for Tesla’s NACS plug. They can’t compete with the charging network. It’s probably fine in big cities, but I have no shortage of Tesla chargers here and it looks like Tesla is partnering with a few major Wisconsin brands to do so. The government didn’t have to force that.

We can argue about CAFE and I personally think they’re making too big a jump this time, but we’ve always had requirements to increase fuel economy. Sure seems though that fuel economy isn’t that important to many so they just buy larger vehicles. I don’t think there’s a single US branded economy car left. They’re at least a small crossover now. Germany, Japan, and Korea still do because there’s a global market for them. Luckily we still get some of them for now.

 

[y_p_w]

Same here. Not only employers, but some businesses offer free charging, hoping they will get the car owner in their store while their car is charging. Clever.

That's Tesla's Destination Charging model. I think the site pays for everything including the equipment, installation, and electricity. However, that gets Tesla to place the location in its database, including navigation. Most listings say they're for customers, but I've seen a few that say that they're open to the public.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

So in other words, what you are saying is EVs will not be appealing to the masses without artificial intervention.

The marketplace has to be perturbed because consumers (who are generally rational, even if we don't understand their rationale) won't pick them in the free market.

They won't appeal to the masses who are concerned about cost, range and charging.

Therefore, government must issue mandates that FORCE consumers into a choice they would not freely make.

Doesn't sound like government has much faith in either consumers or industry.


Or, government doesn't want people making rational choices that best serve their needs or desires. Government only wants people making choices that serve the objectives of government.

That's what I got from what you wrote.

Or, some in government are steering taxpayer funds to their biggest donors’ businesses (but not viable, sustainable ones) as a “thank you” note for their campaign donations. Kick in $1M, get a guaranteed contract for $15M+. I feel they missed an opportunity in not having Oprah be the spokeswoman for the green gravy train handouts.

 

[DukeOfFrontenac]

'Mandatory' is a triggering word for some of us.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

'Mandatory' is a triggering word for some of us.

The most triggering is “laws for thee, but not for me”…. Anytime those making the rules are exempt from the fallout of said rules, they can stick that right up their own rear and ignite it.

And, if it’s such a good idea for us, THEY should be mandated to follow those rules FIRST!

 

[javacontour]

Those of us buying EVs is because it is a rational choice for us. If we aren’t buying them, CAFE numbers won’t be hit and it’ll start knocking more cars. I think the CAFE numbers have killed small cars more than anything. It’s more profitable to make a truck or SUV for that reason.

As far as infrastructure there’s no surprise that the vast majority of EVs are Teslas. They knew charging could be a pain point and have invested heavily into charging. I even have around me in small town Midwest areas. That’s one of the reasons why we bought a Tesla.

The market will work itself out on it, but that’s why everyone is signing on for Tesla’s NACS plug. They can’t compete with the charging network. It’s probably fine in big cities, but I have no shortage of Tesla chargers here and it looks like Tesla is partnering with a few major Wisconsin brands to do so. The government didn’t have to force that.

We can argue about CAFE and I personally think they’re making too big a jump this time, but we’ve always had requirements to increase fuel economy. Sure seems though that fuel economy isn’t that important to many so they just buy larger vehicles. I don’t think there’s a single US branded economy car left. They’re at least a small crossover now. Germany, Japan, and Korea still do because there’s a global market for them. Luckily we still get some of them for now.

And that's the thing.

I'm not against EVs. I can see where they CAN be a rational choice for some. Probably for more than choose them. Or at least they could. They would have to become less costly, and by that I mean less costly without government subsidies.

(AND, for those who want to point out other subsidies, I'm not in favor of those either, so asking "what about..." misses my point.)

Citing the CAFE standards, what did the carmakers do? Someone already brought up unintended consequences. Carmakers moved on to more light trucks. Instead of the big "family truckster" that was the American station wagon, minivans and SUVs that get classified as light trucks came about so that carmakers could build what consumers actually wanted.

Governments can make mandates and consumers and producers will still find a way to make what the market wants.

 

[Shel_B]

Never been in a state where you can't pump the gas yourself.

Takes me back to the good old days. Hand them $5.00 and let them fill your tank. But back then, gas was less than .50 cents per gallon.

Until recently, Oregon required attendants to pump gas. That's mentioned in the linked article below.

New Jersey is now the only state in America where it’s illegal for drivers to pump their own gas.

There’s only one state left where it’s illegal to pump your own gas

There is now only one state in America where it’s illegal for drivers to pump their own gas.

www.kcra.com

 

[JeffKeryk]

Governments can make mandates and consumers and producers will still find a way to make what the market wants.

Well, that's not what's happening in America. Car companies are making expensive, option laden vehicles. And adding markups.
If a car company made a quality, low priced vehicle like the earlier Corolla/Civic, Accord/Camry, or Datsun PU/Toyota PU, I believe they would sell like crazy. But their margins would tumble. People keep buying because they got us by the short hairs.

 

[skaughtz]

I always love the fancy toy comments. Best way to nullify any well worded statement over a $38k car.

Tesla's are cool. If you have the money to get one, go for it. I have two main issues with electric vehicles:

1) Environmental impact. The seriously detrimental impacts of the mining and processing of the raw materials (lithium, cobalt, platinum/palladium, etc.) needed for sufficient battery production is disturbingly omitted from the conversation.

2) Right to repair. EPA emissions loopholes allow EV manufacturers to maintain repair information as proprietary. Since EVs have no emissions, the only source to repair your vehicle will be/is the manufacturer/dealer.

Otherwise, electric motors have been around for years and I have nothing against them. Hell, Mercedes put them in King Tiger's in WW2 and those were (historically speaking) awesome. But your average Joe is not spending $40k+ on a car containing one, so in all likelihood reality will be legislated to fit an agenda, which is a dangerously shortsighted procedure.

 

[skaughtz]

Which state does MD hope to export their pollution to while not making enough domestic power to make this dream a reality?

It is a valid question. Maryland consumes 35% more electricity than it produces domestically.

 

[Dinoburner]

Was talking to someone in a retail clothing business who said that the govt, is suggesting which products they might add to their line of products. Didn`t ask for specifics so OP of this thread didn`t surprise.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Regarding any potential mandates, there is an election every four years, adding up to 3 more elections prior to the magical 2035.

 

[Torrid]

Tesla's are cool. If you have the money to get one, go for it. I have two main issues with electric vehicles:

1) Environmental impact. The seriously detrimental impacts of the mining and processing of the raw materials (lithium, cobalt, platinum/palladium, etc.) needed for sufficient battery production is disturbingly omitted from the conversation.

2) Right to repair. EPA emissions loopholes allow EV manufacturers to maintain repair information as proprietary. Since EVs have no emissions, the only source to repair your vehicle will be/is the manufacturer/dealer.

Otherwise, electric motors have been around for years and I have nothing against them. Hell, Mercedes put them in King Tiger's in WW2 and those were (historically speaking) awesome. But your average Joe is not spending $40k+ on a car containing one, so in all likelihood reality will be legislated to fit an agenda, which is a dangerously shortsighted procedure.

Maybe not but the average person is spending $40k-$50k on a car these days. Just because they didn’t buy an EV doesn’t make the EV a toy. It’s these goofy language games minimizing other people’s preferences and in essence insulting people that make these conversations go south. You said a lot of things here and the studies are out there for anyone that wants to read them. No one is ignoring the work to make the batteries. It’s figured into the numbers of why it has more impact in production before it crosses over below a similar ICE vehicles as the miles are put on. Depending on the car that crossover is between 20k-30k miles.

 

[NiwradND]

Regarding any potential mandates, there is an election every four years, adding up to 3 more elections prior to the magical 2035.

Free market is what we need, people buy the vechile that they need not to have electric shoved up their rears if they are not going to work for them. People don't realize electric isn't for everyone.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Maybe not but the average person is spending $40k-$50k on a car these days. Just because they didn’t buy an EV doesn’t make the EV a toy. It’s these goofy language games minimizing other people’s preferences and in essence insulting people that make these conversations go south. You said a lot of things here and the studies are out there for anyone that wants to read them. No one is ignoring the work to make the batteries. It’s figured into the numbers of why it has more impact in production before it crosses over below a similar ICE vehicles as the miles are put on. Depending on the car that crossover is between 20k-30k miles.

I know sometimes wording makes certain positions seem absolute, and can be wrongly interpreted, so here’s MY clear:

I’m 100% consumer choice. If someone wants an EV, great. If someone else wants ICE, great. Free market has shown itself to make better decisions and offer better choices than any economist, central planner, or bureaucrat, ever. When the consumer is given free choice of spending their money wherever best fits their needs and budget, not only are consumers happiest, but companies must be responsive and innovative to earn those dollars, so the customer gets the best fit for their needs, every time.

When it comes to market forces and consumer choice/satisfaction, there is not one instance in history where more arbitrary rules increased customer satisfaction. End of story.

Enjoy your EV, ICE, or whatever you want. I can almost guarantee if people give into the forced solutions, the day will rapidly come where the next forced solution will be one you didn’t see coming, and don’t like either, but by then it’s too late. Insist on consumer choice!

 

[Torrid]

Free market is what we need, people buy the vechile that they need not to have electric shoved up their rears if they are not going to work for them. People don't realize electric isn't for everyone.

We all know that and no one is forcing anyone to buy an EV.

 

[skaughtz]

Maybe not but the average person is spending $40k-$50k on a car these days. Just because they didn’t buy an EV doesn’t make the EV a toy. It’s these goofy language games minimizing other people’s preferences and in essence insulting people that make these conversations go south. You said a lot of things here and the studies are out there for anyone that wants to read them. No one is ignoring the work to make the batteries. It’s figured into the numbers of why it has more impact in production before it crosses over below a similar ICE vehicles as the miles are put on. Depending on the car that crossover is between 20k-30k miles.

I am not engaging in a semantics argument to make my point or for you to debate your own. Electric vehicle adoption as it stands today is not widely associated with middle- or lower-class citizens. The expectation that it will be in the near future while remaining cost prohibitive is speculative at best.

 

[Dave9]

They should no more be mandated to have EV chargers than they are mandated to have gas. It's a piece of property and the business can sell whatever they do, and don't, want to. The government should exclude some illegal things but never force inclusion.

 

[andyd]

Uhhmn having an incident with an electric car's lithium battery at a charging station sharing space with gas pumps scenario has to investigated and idiot proofed.

 

[NiwradND]

We all know that and no one is forcing anyone to buy an EV.

Well, I heard on CNN where everyone needs to go electric. Here in North Dakota they don't work well in the winter. People are going to freeze to death if they are forced to have an electric vehicle. Also said no more gas stoves or water heaters..........How stupid people can get. Spend 100 years inventing products and spend the next 20 years getting rid of them!