Should gas stations be mandated to have chargers as well?

[burbguy82]

That's not really the point though. DC fast charging certainly makes sense but probably won't be the dominant form of public or semi-public charging in the future.

Where I see them it's rarely any kind of new construction like building a gas station. Tesla almost always uses existing parking lots and prefers to place them in otherwise low traffic parts of those lots. And the same goes for for most of the charging stations I see.

What's likely going to be the dominant way is slower charging at places where people will be parked for a while. Malls, movie theaters (although that's an interesting case if it's only 3 hours), restaurants, and especially hotels. Amusement parks are also a really good use case.

Maybe. The construction aspect of what you propose with "parking lot" charging would be mind boggling. I could just imagine how many of the charging pedestals would get ran over!

I disagree about your fast charging point, in public. Irrespondsible people will forget to charge their vehicle 100%. And slow charging might not be the best idea in the evening hours when everyone is home.

Very in-depth subject for sure.

I think diesel electric hybrid is the way to go myself.

 

[y_p_w]

Maybe. The construction aspect of what you propose with "parking lot" charging would be mind boggling. I could just imagine how many of the charging pedestals would get ran over!

I disagree about your fast charging point, in public. Irrespondsible people will forget to charge their vehicle 100%. And slow charging might not be the best idea in the evening hours when everyone is home.

Very in-depth subject for sure.

I think diesel electric hybrid is the way to go myself.

Slower charging is the overwhelming way people charge their EVs since it can be done at home or in a driveway. I've seen some some people setting up cable protectors to allow charging an EV parked on the street. It's also ideal from a standpoint of battery longevity. My dad prefer just plugging in at home where he can hit the set limit overnight.

I haven't really heard of too many cases when someone ran over any kind of charging station. I'm sure it's happened before, but likely with a similar rate as people driving off from gas stations with the pump handle still in or taking out signs.

 

[burbguy82]

Slower charging is the overwhelming way people charge their EVs since it can be done at home or in a driveway. I've seen some some people setting up cable protectors to allow charging an EV parked on the street. It's also ideal from a standpoint of battery longevity. My dad prefer just plugging in at home where he can hit the set limit overnight.

I haven't really heard of too many cases when someone ran over any kind of charging station. I'm sure it's happened before, but likely with a similar rate as people driving off from gas stations with the pump handle still in or taking out signs.

I was using you amusement parking lot charging setup as an example.

It's also ideal from a standpoint of battery longevity

Yes 100% true.

 

[JeffKeryk]

That is an understatement, there is not enough real estate in some areas to have EV refueling stations that would be able to have the capacity to handle the amount of vehicles that are currently ICE powered.

That assumes you need to charge at a dedicated EV charging station. Unlike petrol fuel, almost anywhere you park your car could be used for charging. I charge at Starbucks or shopping centers the rare times I need a top off. I have never seen a dedicated charge place.
It is common to see hospitals and larger clinics with chargers. Many work places have had chargers for more than 10 years.

Treating EVs like ICE is natural for us because we are so used to ICE, but that is short sighted. These cars are different.
Supercharger Map.

 

[y_p_w]

That assumes you need to charge at a dedicated EV charging station. Almost anywhere you park your car could be used for charging. I charge at Starbucks or shopping centers the rare times I need a top off. I have never seen a dedicated charge place.
It is common to see hospitals and larger clinics with chargers. Many work places have had chargers for more than 10 years.

Treating EVs like ICE is natural for us because we are so used to ICE, but that is short sighted. These cars are different.
Supercharger Map.

Certainly it would make sense for long term airport parking. SFO has Level 2 charging for free and I'm thinking it wouldn't make sense to have an idle fee. They say Level 1 is available if the user brings one and plugs it into their 110V outlets, but that's where I'd worry about it being stolen, although I suppose it should be locked in. But I suppose something like an J1772 setup with an NACS adapter on a Tesla could be stolen pretty easily, but might be acceptable at home.

 

[Jdeere562]

Let's turn the tables. Should EV charging stations be required to sell gasoline?
Makes just as much sense.

 

[JeffKeryk]

The point is, don't think about going somewhere to fuel up. That makes sense for ICE but is not necessary, or even smart, for EV.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Let's turn the tables. Should EV charging stations be required to sell gasoline?
Makes just as much sense.

Exactly. Zero sense.
I made that point many pages ago. The idea of a mandate is terrible. The whole idea of this thread is a recipe for trouble, IMO.
It makes no sense, fiscally or otherwise.

 

[y_p_w]

Let's turn the tables. Should EV charging stations be required to sell gasoline?
Makes just as much sense.

Not really. The regulatory requirements for selling gasoline are far more stringent and difficult than an electrical connection and equipment installation.

A ChargePoint commercial-level Level 2 single port charging station costs around $6000 and only needs a commercial 240V connection and a way to communicate with ChargePoint. Adding that to a gas station (which I don't think should be a requirement) is a lot easier than all that's required to sell fuel.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Not really. The regulatory requirements for selling gasoline are far more stringent and difficult than an electrical connection and equipment installation.

A ChargePoint commercial-level Level 2 single port charging station costs around $6000 and only needs a commercial 240V connection and a way to communicate with ChargePoint. Adding that to a gas station (which I don't think should be a requirement) is a lot easier than all that's required to sell fuel.

I think @Jdeere562 is simply saying it doesn't make sense. And he's right. Beyond any mandate, it makes zero financial sense.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Not really. The regulatory requirements for selling gasoline are far more stringent and difficult than an electrical connection and equipment installation.

A ChargePoint commercial-level Level 2 single port charging station costs around $6000 and only needs a commercial 240V connection and a way to communicate with ChargePoint. Adding that to a gas station (which I don't think should be a requirement) is a lot easier than all that's required to sell fuel.

Same difference if there isn't enough electrical capacity on the grid at the gas station, or that gas station doesn't have enough excess current service, or the service has to be pulled again from a long away location. The grid isn't this magical thing with unlimited capacity.

So basically your answer is the mandate is only acceptable in one direction?

 

[y_p_w]

Same difference if there isn't enough electrical capacity on the grid at the gas station, or that gas station doesn't have enough excess current service, or the service has to be pulled again from a long away location. The grid isn't this magical thing with unlimited capacity.

So basically your answer is the mandate is only acceptable in one direction?

Just as a practical matter, it's far easier to install an EV charging system at a gas station than it is to provide fuel at an EV charging setup. That's it.

Pretty much every business uses electricity.

In Sweden they're already looking at the decline of the internal combustion engine and installing commercial EV charging at existing gas stations.

https://cstoredecisions.com/2023/11/22/circle-k-launches-16-charging-stations-for-trucks-in-sweden/

 

[Rmay635703]

Maybe. The construction aspect of what you propose with "parking lot" charging would be mind boggling. I could just imagine how many of the charging pedestals would get ran over!

In my area parking lots still have large light poles the voltage and amperage ratings on them are quite large to support HPS which are getting converted to LED which use half the power.

I have already seen outlets or even EVSEs placed on the poles using the existing infrastructure.

Back when I did craft shows one of the downtown main streets had outlets embedded flush into the sidewalk/ curb. Unscrew the brass cover and an outlet was underneath, that was 20 years ago and they had them along the full length of the street.

 

[y_p_w]

In my area parking lots still have large light poles the voltage and amperage ratings on them are quite large to support HPS which are getting converted to LED which use half the power.

I have already seen outlets or even EVSEs placed on the poles using the existing infrastructure.

Back when I did craft shows one of the downtown main streets had outlets embedded flush into the sidewalk/ curb. Unscrew the brass cover and an outlet was underneath, that was 20 years ago and they had them along the full length of the street.

Pirating electricity isn't that uncommon. I saw someone (looked homeless) using an outlet at a gas station building facing the sidewalk. He was actually charging his phone. Not sure why they would have it other than maybe if they needed to plug power equipment like a line trimmer or something else.

 

[4WD]

Pirating electricity isn't that uncommon. I saw someone (looked homeless) using an outlet at a gas station building facing the sidewalk. He was actually charging his phone. Not sure why they would have it other than maybe if they needed to plug power equipment like a line trimmer or something else.

It gets worse - years ago I rented a lake house only to find someone had modified copper tubing to connect where the meter would latch up

 

[Rmay635703]

Pirating electricity isn't that uncommon. I saw someone (looked homeless) using an outlet at a gas station building facing the sidewalk. He was actually charging his phone. Not sure why they would have it other than maybe if they needed to plug power equipment like a line trimmer or something else.

No need to pirate when the company who owns the lot does it themselves

 

[burbguy82]

In my area parking lots still have large light poles the voltage and amperage ratings on them are quite large to support HPS which are getting converted to LED which use half the power.

I have already seen outlets or even EVSEs placed on the poles using the existing infrastructure.

Back when I did craft shows one of the downtown main streets had outlets embedded flush into the sidewalk/ curb. Unscrew the brass cover and an outlet was underneath, that was 20 years ago and they had them along the full length of the street.

it would be much more complicated than that.

 

[SHOZ]

Modern ICE vehicles are very clean.

 

[Rmay635703]

it would be much more complicated than that.

So complex they already have done it at at least one local business. Even have signs saying EV CHARGING

 

[burbguy82]

So complex they already have done it at at least one local business. Even have signs saying EV CHARGING

I was referring to your hypothetical "parking lot", keep up. I have no doubt that some have retrofitted existing stuff (where possible) is one thing, a parking lot is another.