Shaeffer Oil beats others for my Honda 1.5 TDI 2018 Earth Dreams Engine......

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

I am sorry. I can not resist. Here is a sacrificial offering for all to have fun with ripping to shreds, correcting the grammar and accuse of flat out lies.
Should be fun for some. But this is why I have faith in quality lubricants.
In 2002 a certain brand of sedans' transaxles (transmissions) began to fail at an alarming rate. So many that people tried to force a recall. Mine had 20,000 miles when I asked a friend (brandX Service Manager) if he thought I should do the routine fluid / filter change. He took me aside and told me... "You do not want to do that. Our mechanics who own those 2002 sedans and work on them reported this... Usually no problem UNTIL the fluid services (these 2002s had no replaceable filters) are performed. Then .... failures occur." He told me the mechanics were adding a pint of a certain cleaner for 100 mi. once every 20,000 interval. Then flush out and replace transmission fluid with a specific (which is one that is not intended for long term use) transmission fluid. It did not make sense cause the one they were using was for racing. Never the less , I followed his instructions and kept that 2002 sedan running and not once did the transmission slip / trip or fail for 18 full years and 228,000 mi before trade in. The service manager told me he knows the young person who owns that car now and its still going strong. So, I can't prove if I just flat got lucky (cause ALL 2002 brandX transmissions did not self destruct) or did my preventive maintenance regimen that dealership mechanics put me onto helped? I figure I avoided a possible $3000 to $4000 repair job with their help. Now folks can rip this story to shreds and accuse me of lying or what ever. There are reasons that there are many makers and sellers of similar products. Some are poor and some are top quality. A fact of life. To me , not worth a fight about. To each his own. I made certain NOT to say what we were using in those transmissions. I will now go away again. Peace to all.

Sometimes people need to look back at what they just wrote rather than focusing on writing more.

Thank you for pointing that out. No more since I do typo errors at times. Thanks so much.

 

[PimTac]

Thank you. I know what a regular UOA is used for and have used them in the past. So are you saying there is no test or way to tell if there is metal contamination in an oil sample. Hmmm.
People are talking like LSPI will explode your engine every time. No that is not the case. But I was led to believe that the fuel dilution was a result of LSPI? Is it too hi injector pressure causing the LSPI and does that contribute to the fuel dilution? Anyone here really know or are we throwing stuff on the wall to see what sticks? I have to be in the wrong forum. Its my fault. I expected people (current, ex mechanics, engineers etc....) to discuss not just oil but new engines and cause and effects. No one has stated or explained to any of us exactly how and why the Low Spark Pre Ignition is occurring and or does that have anything to do with oil/fuel contamination / dilution. I have stated I do not know. I have ideas but that is all.

@kschachn linked the Oronite article which explains how LSPI occurs. I highly recommend it.

Another point, in many cases you do not know it really happened. Early on a lot of people reported their engines died after getting off the freeway and slowing down on the off-ramp. These events happened when the engines were under low stress.

 

[xgmad]

why is honda even recommending 0w20 for such a powerful tractor engine put in a car?
If I was honda and didn't care about CAFE, i'd use 0w40 lspi resistant oil, maybe a low calcium 10w30 or 15w40.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Any ex & current mechanics, engineers, lubrication specialist etc... here with knowledge about Low Spark Pre Ignition and Fuel Dilution in modern Di / turbo engine cars? Anyone that does not mind sharing your insights or working knowledge about those issues? I am NOT an expert on these issues and only know what I have read searching the internet and from years working on 60s thru 80s autos. Thank You.

 

[OVERKILL]

Any ex & current mechanics, engineers, lubrication specialist etc... here with knowledge about Low Spark Pre Ignition and Fuel Dilution in modern Di / turbo engine cars? Anyone that does not mind sharing your insights or working knowledge about those issues? I am NOT an expert on these issues and only know what I have read searching the internet and from years working on 60s thru 80s autos. Thank You.

It's Low SPEED Pre-Ignition.

You worked on cars, I'm sure you've experienced pinging/knock and perhaps detonation from too much ignition timing or not enough octane. LSPI is affectionately referred to as "Super Knock" and is the result of high load, low RPM and high cylinder pressure (which is why it happens on turbocharged DI engines) where SOMETHING in the combustion chamber (usually determined to be deposits, think of the run-on caused by carbon build-up in old carbureted cars) ignites the mixture at the wrong time creating a massive knock event that can blow a hole in the piston or break a large chunk of it off at the ring land area.

That's what LSPI is.

Fuel dilution in DI engines is caused by the fact that in a DI engine, the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder via a high-pressure nozzle, which means the air/fuel mixture isn't created by a stream of air that is already in motion going through the intake valve and the fuel mist injected into it as it passes by like in a port injected engine but rather it's blasted into air that has already mostly stopped moving, particularly at lower engine speeds.

This results in some of that fuel not mixing with the air and ending up on the cylinder walls, working its way by the rings. This is exasperated by cold engine enrichment programming (warm-up) and short tripping and by the use of enrichment to prevent knock and detonation because DI engines run higher compression ratios. That's one of the reasons DI makes more power, the ability to manipulate injector timing means the ability to control when the fuel is injected, which in-turn means better knock control, as the ECM has the ability to change both spark and injection timing, but of course one of the oldest tools for preventing detonation is enrichment, and since most DI mills still spec '87 octane, you end up with enrichment being used in its stead.

One member, a few years ago commented that his DI mill diluted less with 91 vs when he ran 87. While on the surface one wouldn't think that would make sense, in the context of controlling knock and preventing detonating, the ECM is likely tracking knock and manipulating both of those parameters (spark advance and injector timing) to keep it on the ragged edge and if less enrichment is required to avoid it with 91, then it's certainly possible that this would have an impact on fuel dilution.

Because of the low speed characteristics of DI, Toyota implemented a hybrid setup that utilizes port injection at lower engine speeds and during warm-up and periods where it is the better match, and DI under conditions where it is clearly superior, like high engine load. This would have an impact on two inherent DI issues:
- Intake valve deposits
- Fuel dilution

Ford's recent foray into the same setup was executed on the Coyote V8, but it's not clear that this was the motivator but rather that the engine was originally port injected and DI was added to allow the implementation of higher static compression ratios and thus the ability to extract more power. At least that's what their engine information piece states.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

It's Low SPEED Pre-Ignition.

You worked on cars, I'm sure you've experienced pinging/knock and perhaps detonation from too much ignition timing or not enough octane. LSPI is affectionately referred to as "Super Knock" and is the result of high load, low RPM and high cylinder pressure (which is why it happens on turbocharged DI engines) where SOMETHING in the combustion chamber (usually determined to be deposits, think of the run-on caused by carbon build-up in old carbureted cars) ignites the mixture at the wrong time creating a massive knock event that can blow a hole in the piston or break a large chunk of it off at the ring land area.

That's what LSPI is.

Fuel dilution in DI engines is caused by the fact that in a DI engine, the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder via a high-pressure nozzle, which means the air/fuel mixture isn't created by a stream of air that is already in motion going through the intake valve and the fuel mist injected into it as it passes by like in a port injected engine but rather it's blasted into air that has already mostly stopped moving, particularly at lower engine speeds.

This results in some of that fuel not mixing with the air and ending up on the cylinder walls, working its way by the rings. This is exasperated by cold engine enrichment programming (warm-up) and short tripping and by the use of enrichment to prevent knock and detonation because DI engines run higher compression ratios. That's one of the reasons DI makes more power, the ability to manipulate injector timing means the ability to control when the fuel is injected, which in-turn means better knock control, as the ECM has the ability to change both spark and injection timing, but of course one of the oldest tools for preventing detonation is enrichment, and since most DI mills still spec '87 octane, you end up with enrichment being used in its stead.

One member, a few years ago commented that his DI mill diluted less with 91 vs when he ran 87. While on the surface one wouldn't think that would make sense, in the context of controlling knock and preventing detonating, the ECM is likely tracking knock and manipulating both of those parameters (spark advance and injector timing) to keep it on the ragged edge and if less enrichment is required to avoid it with 91, then it's certainly possible that this would have an impact on fuel dilution.

Because of the low speed characteristics of DI, Toyota implemented a hybrid setup that utilizes port injection at lower engine speeds and during warm-up and periods where it is the better match, and DI under conditions where it is clearly superior, like high engine load. This would have an impact on two inherent DI issues:
- Intake valve deposits
- Fuel dilution

Ford's recent foray into the same setup was executed on the Coyote V8, but it's not clear that this was the motivator but rather that the engine was originally port injected and DI was added to allow the implementation of higher static compression ratios and thus the ability to extract more power. At least that's what their engine information piece states.

Thanks a lot OVERKILL.... That's the stuff brother. I bow to you!

Got one for you all (if interested). Still not too sure how I feel about this one. Probably still on YouTube. "The King" Richard Petty and some of his guys from Petty Motorsports set up at a gas station some hi tech gear. They watched folks gas up with different brands (octane levels) and then asked them to participate in a test. Supposedly according to these machines. There was no better performance found in (maybe this is key?) modern day autos. Kind of throws me for a loss because I hope the US government & Department of Energy is not so corrupt they would allow Big Oil to charge us different prices for similar fuel in the tanks. I have heard that most base stock gasoline comes from a lot of the same places and then additives are mixed per brand types....

 

[kschachn]

Octane rating is very much misunderstood on here and elsewhere. Unless your engine is able to utilize a fuel of higher octane than the one listed in your owner’s manual as a minimum then there will be no performance improvement. All octane ratings in general have the same energy content. An engine that can utilize a higher rating is more efficient at extracting the energy but the amount of energy is the same.

 

[OVERKILL]

Thanks a lot OVERKILL.... That's the stuff brother. I bow to you!

Got one for you all (if interested). Still not too sure how I feel about this one. Probably still on YouTube. "The King" Richard Petty and some of his guys from Petty Motorsports set up at a gas station some hi tech gear. They watched folks gas up with different brands (octane levels) and then asked them to participate in a test. Supposedly according to these machines. There was no better performance found in (maybe this is key?) modern day autos. Kind of throws me for a loss because I hope the US government & Department of Energy is not so corrupt they would allow Big Oil to charge us different prices for similar fuel in the tanks. I have heard that most base stock gasoline comes from a lot of the same places and then additives are mixed per brand types....

As @kschachn touched-on the octane rating is just the anti-knock index of the fuel. In order to experience knock you need to have either a lean condition, too far advanced ignition timing or too high of compression.

While increasing the octane rating of the fuel used was indeed a panacea for dieseling in low compression 70's and 80's cars, it did not improve performance.

To take advantage of a higher octane rating you need to increase ignition timing (and this isn't always a power bump), have a scenario where you are pulling timing (usually higher compression applications) that can be improved through knock-sensor feedback, or similar.

Knock sensor feedback modification of the timing table typically isn't instant and of course on an engine that doesn't have a knock sensor, going up in octane without manually changing the ignition timing is also a futile endeavour.

European cars (like BMW) often spec 91 as minimum, ergo, their ECM's are programmed around that being the minimum octane rating. While they may not blow up if you run 87 in them, you will experience a performance loss. This is of course not the same as a performance gain by going up in octane.

Our RAM 1500 lists 87 as the minimum octane, 89 is recommended. This is due to the compression ratio of the engine. It will pull ignition timing to prevent knock, and subsequently will give up a bit of power when you run 87. We run 91, which likely doesn't provide any improvement over 89, but Costco doesn't sell 89.

If you have a car where you are able to look at the ignition timing and knock sensor feedback, you are able to determine if increasing the octane of the fuel used might provide a small increase in performance.

Say for example you had a car that called for 87, but you datalog it and see that it is pulling timing regularly under high load. Bumping up to 89 stops that. You've likely picked up a small amount of power in that scenario.

Make sense?

 

[PimTac]

One member, a few years ago commented that his DI mill diluted less with 91 vs when he ran 87.

It wasn’t me but I have heard that as well. For disclosure, I run Shell 92 in the Mazda SkyActiv with a 13:1 compression ratio.

The computers are adjusting for this is my guess.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

I finally re- found one of the reasons I changed my Di turbo oil from one brand in favor of another. Here it is if anyone cares to read up on something I find interesting.

What is Moly oil?​

Moly been used in lubricating oils and greases for decades, but unless you're a tribologist, you probably don't know what Moly oil is or even what "Moly" stands for. You can read about the full history by clicking here.

Consider this to be your crash course in all things Moly …​

First things first. "Moly" is short for "Molybdenum". It looks similar to graphite but it's not the same thing. In fact, Molybdenum all by itself is a very hard metal that has a number of industrial uses. It's actually used as an alloy agent to make steel tougher, so that it won't bend as easily. You have probably heard of "chrome moly". With it, manufacturers can use less steel --and, thus, make lighter products -- because it's so much more durable.

In the lubrication world, Molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) is a compound that's used as a dry lubricant. Molybdenum disulfide is an inorganic compound that is composed of molybdenum and sulfur. Even though it's a solid, it's made up of microscopic particles that are great at coating metallic surfaces. That coating effect reduces the amount of friction between surfaces. As a result, moving parts can move more easily, without causing nearly as much wear and tear as they would if the Moly wasn't there.


Because it's so good at reducing friction, Moly has become a common additive to oil. When you hear someone use the term "Moly oil", they're actually talking about a lubricant that has had Moly added to it. Over the years, Moly oil has become one of the premium types of oil on the market.



However, most premium oil formulations (like brandx's) no longer use MoS2 in their motor oils because it does not stay in suspension. The most common type of moly that is used in today’s moly oil formulations is Molybdenum Dithiocarbamate or (MoDTC). This form of moly is 100% oil-soluble which allows it to remain suspended in the motor oil and provides all the benefits of MoS2. brandx's has even patented their own brand, Micron Moly®.

Why?​

Because Moly's friction-reducing capabilities are a very big deal! It's easy to underestimate how bad friction can actually be, so let's look at from your engine's perspective…

In order for you to drive across town to work, all of the metal parts in your engine have to work together. Even with oil, all of those pistons, rods, cylinders and valves are rubbing up against each other. That metal-on-metal contact puts a lot of stress and strain on the parts themselves. After all, it's harder for them to move around when they've got all of that friction. Unfortunately, the harder it is for the parts of your engine to move around, the more fuel they're going to eat up!

Even the most basic motor oil will help reduce the friction between all of these moving parts. But when you add the right amount of Moly into the mix, the friction is reduced dramatically. Remember, the Moly coats each of metal parts moving inside your engine. As a result, you wind up with Moly-on-Moly contact instead of metal-on-metal contact. This Moly can even help protect your engine when there is a complete loss of lubricant.

You can probably figure out where we're going with this.​

Thanks to the Moly, all of the parts inside your engine will be able to move with less stress and strain. That means they won't require as much fuel. Just like that, you've given your car's fuel efficiency a serious boost! You can even expect an improvement in performance. Another benefit is that when you reduce friction, you also reduce heat. Oil soluble molybdenum compounds, such as thiocarbamates, also provide engine protection against oxidation and corrosion.



Moly can be added to many different types of lubricants including greases, gear lubes, hydraulic fluids, metalworking fluids and more so that they also can achieve similar benefits.

But we're not done just yet.​

Having a vehicle that eats up less fuel is great, but Moly oil actually takes things even further. In addition to giving you more fuel efficiency, it also cuts down on the wear and tear inside your engine -- meaning you could reduce maintenance and have fewer expensive repair bills.

But Moly oil will give those parts even more protection. Remember, Moly oil has tiny particles of Molybdenum in it, so it's going to perform different than average motor oil. That added difference will shield the parts of your engine even more, which could make them last considerably longer. Moly oil will also help eliminate some of those strange sounds that are coming from underneath your hood -- like ticking or knocking -- because many of those noises are a result of metal-on-metal contact. They're your car's way of screaming for help!

Best of all, Moly is tough enough to withstand high temperature and high pressure situations. Whether you're taking a quick trip to the grocery store or embarking on a cross-country road trip, your Moly oil will be up to the challenge.

When you look at it that way, the best way to sum everything up is, "Holy Moly! That's some kind of oil!"

Can a moly oil be improved?​

The answer is YES! And brandx's has done just that by adding Penetro, their own secret ingredient.

What is Penetro, and why is it such a great thing? Penetro is really a marvel and breakthrough in oil additives. Try and think of Moly as a very slick and strong surface protector and Penetro as tiny tiny ball bearings. It is dispersed precisely throughout the oil so that friction is reduced so much that you can actually feel it in the pedal. Yes, you heard me right you can really feel it. So now the "cat is out of the bag" and now you know why so many racers are secretly using branxs oil.

Now is the time for you to try brandx's Moly-Penetro formulated engine oil and take the "I Feel It" challenge. You can find the complete line of brandx's oils for sale here at stores.buy1oils.com.

Disclaimer:

This article is written in layman's terms. But if you would like a more scientific approach, you should do your own in depth study of Moly Oil from that perspective. Thank you for reading.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

As @kschachn touched-on the octane rating is just the anti-knock index of the fuel. In order to experience knock you need to have either a lean condition, too far advanced ignition timing or too high of compression.

While increasing the octane rating of the fuel used was indeed a panacea for dieseling in low compression 70's and 80's cars, it did not improve performance.

To take advantage of a higher octane rating you need to increase ignition timing (and this isn't always a power bump), have a scenario where you are pulling timing (usually higher compression applications) that can be improved through knock-sensor feedback, or similar.

Knock sensor feedback modification of the timing table typically isn't instant and of course on an engine that doesn't have a knock sensor, going up in octane without manually changing the ignition timing is also a futile endeavour.

European cars (like BMW) often spec 91 as minimum, ergo, their ECM's are programmed around that being the minimum octane rating. While they may not blow up if you run 87 in them, you will experience a performance loss. This is of course not the same as a performance gain by going up in octane.

Our RAM 1500 lists 87 as the minimum octane, 89 is recommended. This is due to the compression ratio of the engine. It will pull ignition timing to prevent knock, and subsequently will give up a bit of power when you run 87. We run 91, which likely doesn't provide any improvement over 89, but Costco doesn't sell 89.

If you have a car where you are able to look at the ignition timing and knock sensor feedback, you are able to determine if increasing the octane of the fuel used might provide a small increase in performance.

Say for example you had a car that called for 87, but you datalog it and see that it is pulling timing regularly under high load. Bumping up to 89 stops that. You've likely picked up a small amount of power in that scenario.

Make sense?

Thanks. You bring back so many memories to me explaining the Octane ratings. Things I had forgotten about. Its funny but I bet a lot of "shade tree" mechanics like me drifted to mostly associate octane with the thing we are most passionate about. HORSEPOWER!!! So that always makes it easy to forget the "anti-knock" component you explain. Especially with the modern engines of today that run almost perfect with all the advances and computers running things under the hood. I am remembering now looking under the hood of my buddy's new 1967 Malibu SS at his 396cui big block Mark IV engine with the chromed valve covers AND the danger sticker.... "Warning / This vehicle must operate on a fuel with minimum of 95 to 103 octane or engine damage may result." Its hard at times to realize (especially for young folks) that our modern day autos are a thing genius compared to what we had access to from the 50s thru the late 70s. Remember the REAL easy to recognize knocking engines and the ones that kept running / spitting and coughing even after the key was removed. Its easy to forget how great we have it today with autos. No more timing adjustments / carb rebuilds / points to replace and set all the time.... cars breaking down often.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Octane rating is very much misunderstood on here and elsewhere. Unless your engine is able to utilize a fuel of higher octane than the one listed in your owner’s manual as a minimum then there will be no performance improvement. All octane ratings in general have the same energy content. An engine that can utilize a higher rating is more efficient at extracting the energy but the amount of energy is the same.

You know some people, I try to tell to stick to the car manuals "called for" fuel octane rating. They don't care or want to hear it. They will still shell out 45 to 50 cents extra a gallon for premium they do not need as you point out.

 

[kschachn]

You know some people, I try to tell to stick to the car manuals "called for" fuel octane rating. They don't care or want to hear it. They will still shell out 45 to 50 cents extra a gallon for premium they do not need as you point out.

Some engine management systems are capable of altering the spark timing to take advantage of the higher octane fuel. Some do not. My old Sienna and my BMW did but AFAIK my Tiguan does not.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Some engine management systems are capable of altering the spark timing to take advantage of the higher octane fuel. Some do not. My old Sienna and my BMW did but AFAIK my Tiguan does not.

See , that is what blows my mind about today's modern engines (computers!) that can do those things. What nags at me so much.... probably worrying too much over nothing is that Di Turbo 1.5 in my wife's car runs so ****ed good even with the fuel dilution and suspected or possible Low Spark Pre Ignition. All I know to do is to keep an eye on it all I can if we want to keep it. Change oil more often and pay attention to what it sounds like. I am really good at vibrations & listening to machines and getting a feel for the sounds. I can tell at times with that engine if it is real cool weather and you first start it (of course wife would not know if it had an alarm bell) I can feel a tiny (probably unnoticeable to folks) a tiny hesitation / almost stumble when fist take off that goes away almost instantly as it warms up. No sound but definite feel. I started always taking off in the car with the econ setting off and it seems to help. I will turn it on after a stop before going on a long drive. This car gets 41-43 mpg at times.
A lot less around town though.... in the 23-27 range.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Some engine management systems are capable of altering the spark timing to take advantage of the higher octane fuel. Some do not. My old Sienna and my BMW did but AFAIK my Tiguan does not.

STUPID question time... I am serious too. Is there any way a person can find that out that you know of short of putting the car on a machine? Say automotive manufacturers or via internet? example: with my Di turbo 1.5 I assume I am NOT experiencing much if any LSPI cause the thing runs so fine, YET I can't be sure. I know I am getting fuel dilution (at times) cause the old oil has fuel in it. I know this has zero to do with octane and horsepower. I have been led to believe today's high octane gasoline will burn better and cleaner in the engine so that would be a reason to use it for some folks.

 

[OVERKILL]

See , that is what blows my mind about today's modern engines (computers!) that can do those things. What nags at me so much.... probably worrying too much over nothing is that Di Turbo 1.5 in my wife's car runs so ****ed good even with the fuel dilution and suspected or possible Low Spark Pre Ignition. All I know to do is to keep an eye on it all I can if we want to keep it. Change oil more often and pay attention to what it sounds like. I am really good at vibrations & listening to machines and getting a feel for the sounds. I can tell at times with that engine if it is real cool weather and you first start it (of course wife would not know if it had an alarm bell) I can feel a tiny (probably unnoticeable to folks) a tiny hesitation / almost stumble when fist take off that goes away almost instantly as it warms up. No sound but definite feel. I started always taking off in the car with the econ setting off and it seems to help. I will turn it on after a stop before going on a long drive. This car gets 41-43 mpg at times.
A lot less around town though.... in the 23-27 range.

You'd know if you were suffering from LSPI (Low Speed Pre-Ignition). It would be extremely hard to miss.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

Yes. I am not quite as nervous about it when I realized (unless its being kept quiet) there is not a stampede of people with blown Di Turbo engines up to this point.

 

[kschachn]

nvm.

 

[kschachn]

I have been led to believe today's high octane gasoline will burn better and cleaner in the engine so that would be a reason to use it for some folks.

The octane rating in and of itself makes no difference.

 

[xgmad]

overall i think this is hondas problem. It is a known fault and they are trying to help it, but yes this is Honda's problem.