Seeking opinions on 9mm

[AMC]

All the 357 sig is a 9mm +p+ about fps faster. Buffalo bore sells a 9mm load that is a 124grn hollow point at 1300 fps out of the a 4" barrel. The comparable 357 sig load is 125 grn bullet at 1425 fps. Not a very impressive gain for more recoil, bigger flash, a louder report, lower magazine capacity, much higher price, more wear on your gun and less availability....

I am not getting to a big caliber deabte here. There are plenty of those already all over the net. Carry and use what you like and more power to you.

Besides, Hokiefyd already said he wants a 9mm for various reasons. Telling bhim how supposively great another caliber is, is not what he asked for help with. sheesh.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Many police departments are going back to the 9mm from the larger calibers, for good reason.


Didn't your own FHP switch to the Gen4 .45 GAP?



A very cash strapped department that got free guns/holsters in exchange for their turn in Beretta's. Not a good indicator.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: AMC
With good ammo, the 9mm is every bit as good of a stopper as the other calibers


No, it's not.


I believe almost every ballistics expert would disagree with you. Not to mention that all pistol calibers are not good man stoppers. There is virtually no difference in stopping power between all the major calibers 9mm and up (when modern JHP is used, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger T being the 3 big players).

 

[Astro14]

For me, however, I don't find the 40 objectionable, nor the 10mm (it's my favorite round). My issue weapon is an H&K USP compact in .40 S&W, and I've put several thousand rounds through it...and I can rapid fire my Glock 20 into center mass...but I shoot a lot, have LE/Military training and have reasonably big hands...so, I may not reflect the preferences of a typical user...

We can debate the effectiveness of various calibers ad nauseum...but on that topic, the caliber is completely ineffective if, a) you miss the target because it's too much recoil or b) you miss the target because you don't practice with it (out of cost/aversion to recoil).

The point is this: OP wants a 9mm. So, let's stick to discussing guns in 9mm.

 

[Ramblejam]

Let me preface this by saying that I carried a .40 S&W. Had I been issued a 9mm Glock instead, would I have felt inadequately armed relative the prior? Absolutely not.

Originally Posted By: AMC
All the 357 sig is a 9mm +p+ about fps faster. Buffalo bore sells a 9mm load that is a 124grn hollow point at 1300 fps out of the a 4" barrel. The comparable 357 sig load is 125 grn bullet at 1425 fps. Not a very impressive gain for more recoil, bigger flash, a louder report, lower magazine capacity, much higher price, more wear on your gun and less availability....

I am not getting to a big caliber deabte here. There are plenty of those already all over the net. Carry and use what you like and more power to you.

Besides, Hokiefyd already said he wants a 9mm for various reasons. Telling bhim how supposively great another caliber is, is not what he asked for help with. sheesh.


The 9mm is a great round; nor am I trying to convince Hokie to select another caliber, but simply addressing your statements.

Seriously, trotting out ballistics from Buffalo Bore? Come on, now.

For the sake of this discussion, lets take a look at ammunition from one manufacturer that puts out a line in the commonly available calibers, at common loadings and provides testing data to support their conclusions (open the image in a new tab/window to enlarge).

As aformentioned, I'd have no issue with a 9mm on my hip. But telling people that "the 9mm is every bit as good of a stopper as the other calibers" is misleading at best.

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I believe almost every ballistics expert would disagree with you. Not to mention that all pistol calibers are not good man stoppers. There is virtually no difference in stopping power between all the major calibers 9mm and up (when modern JHP is used, Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger T being the 3 big players).


I'm sure that would have been very comforting to hear for the family of Trooper Andrew J. Sperr.

"After considerable review and testing by the NYSP, the Glock Model 37, .45 caliber GAP was chosen to be the new sidearm, as it offers superior ballistic performance over the 9mm, yet remains controllable and accurate for all members."

 

[strat81]

Way to cherry pick, Ramblejam.

The Hornady XTP is one of the oldest designs still on the market in terms of JDP pistol bullets.

The terminal ballistics for 9mm are much better when compared to newer designs such as the bullets in Hornady Critical Duty and Federal HST.

The fact 9x19, .40S&W, .357SIG, and .45ACP are all widely used by various LE agencies indicates there is no clear winner or better round. They all have their trade-offs - capacity, gun/grip size, recoil, bullet choice, and cost among them.

You don't see much .380ACP, .38 Super, 10mm, or .460 Rowland on officers' hips.

More often than not, sidearm brand and caliber choices are being made by politicians, political appointees, and cronies, not the trainers, not the patrolmen, not anyone else who will use those firearms as part of their daily work.

But if you want to trot out what agencies carry, NYPD, one of the largest (if not THE largest) municipal police departments in the country, issues 9x19 to their officers. 124gr, Speer Gold Dots.

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: strat81
The terminal ballistics for 9mm are much better when compared to newer designs such as the bullets in Hornady Critical Duty and Federal HST.


Interesting analysis.

Could you please provide us with a document (such as I did) that tests various calibers among the same product line from one of your new models? By test, I don't mean benchmark numbers, but performance when subjected to bare gelatin, heavy clothing, sheet metal, sheetrock, and automotive glass.

Thanks.

Originally Posted By: strat81
But if you want to trot out what agencies carry, NYPD, one of the largest (if not THE largest) municipal police departments in the country, issues 9x19 to their officers. 124gr, Speer Gold Dots.


And? As aforementioned, I have no problem with a department selecting 9mm, nor would I have qualms about carrying it myself. All I said, and all I'm saying, is that I took issue with the statement of 9mm being "every bit as good". That's all.

 

[bubbatime]

You chose Hornady XTP as your proving point!!?? Those rounds have been around for 20-30 YEARS!! Try again grasshopper.

 

[strat81]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: strat81
The terminal ballistics for 9mm are much better when compared to newer designs such as the bullets in Hornady Critical Duty and Federal HST.


Interesting analysis.

Could you please provide us with a document (such as I did) that tests various calibers among the same product line from one of your new models? By test, I don't mean benchmark numbers, but performance when subjected to bare gelatin, heavy clothing, sheet metal, sheetrock, and automotive glass.

Thanks.


Ammo designed to meet the FBI protocols will perform similar across calibers and brand. Neither under nor over penetration is acceptable. There is no handicap for different calibers.

Straight from Hornady:
http://www.hornady.com/support/critical-duty-and-critical-defense

Quote:
The FlexLock® bullets loaded in all Critical DUTY® offerings are rugged, heavy jacketed bullets that deliver virtually “barrier blind” performance (i.e. total penetration, weight retention and expansion are practically the same) when shot through common urban barriers* (bare gelatin, auto glass, sheet metal, plywood, drywall, heavy clothing*).

*As defined by the “FBI Protocol” handgun ammunition tests.


That is for that particular line of ammo. Of course, comparing different calibers with bullets of different construction will yield very different results. E.g., a 9mm JHP will perform differently than a .357SIG FMJ.

Plenty of viewing on Youtube for Critical Duty ammo tests (with remarkably similar results among various calibers):
https://www.google.com/search?q=hornady+critical+duty+site%3Ayoutube.com

And Federal HST:
https://www.google.com/search?q=federal+hst+site%3Ayoutube.com

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
"After considerable review and testing by the NYSP, the Glock Model 37, .45 caliber GAP was chosen to be the new sidearm, as it offers superior ballistic performance over the 9mm, yet remains controllable and accurate for all members."


You take one statement made by a public information officer or department spokesperson as fact? Well that solves it then. I'm sure the spokesperson is a certified ballistics expert with years of experience.

Or maybe tax payers don't support money spent without gain so the police dept has to justify their new purchase to the masses by saying it's better??

 

[Astro14]

Can we go back on topic, please and help the OP choose a gun?

I find the caliber discussion interesting...but it's getting way OT as the OP has already stated his caliber choice: 9mm.

For the record, I own 6 pistols in 9mm (S&W, Glock, Beretta), so I am not denigrating the 9mm when I state my preference for something different.

But let's start a new thread on best caliber choice...OK?

 

[strat81]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd

As you said, the standard CZ 75 B/variants don't have the rail, but the SP-01 does...so if I want the rail, I'd want the SP-01 (or any of the CZs with the rail, really). And universal tactical lights are certainly available that will fit any gun with a rail. Do you (or does anyone) have a suggestion for a great universal light that is easy to switch on?


My SP-01 wears a Streamlight TLR-2 when it's in the nightstand.

For a rail mounted light, look at Surefire, Streamlight, and Insight.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Can we go back on topic, please and help the OP choose a gun?


Silence on my part may have helped contribute to the straying off of the original topic.

I think I've decided on the CZ 75 SP-01. I need to sell my EMP 9mm to generate the funds; once the EMP sells, I've identified a local gun shop a friend of mine knows personally, and he said he can get me a deal there; and apparently, they are well-stocked in CZ firearms, so that's encouraging.

Thanks to all for the helpful discussion, and for the recommendations of some tac lights. I've not yet completely made a decision on that (whether to add a light or laser or not), but having a gun with the rail gives me that option should I decide to go that route.

 

[strat81]

If you find an SP-01 in stock locally, put a deposit down on it. CZs have been somewhat hard to get in many places.

Also, you'll need to decide if you want the SP-01 with a manual safety or a decocker.

 

[Astro14]

Hokiefyd - If I didn't have 3 tuition bills coming soon, I would have driven down and given you cash for that EMP...still, if it didn't suit your needs, your making the right choice in getting something that does.

And while some calibers are better than others, the caliber that you can shoot accurately, and often, makes the most sense in this case...

 

[nleksan]

Sorry, I didn't intend to get carried away with a caliber comparison, not in general.

The point I was trying to make was how, while any round I listed will kill, the dynamics change quite a bit when there is more than just clothing between the barrel of a weapon and the target. It is, in my opinion, prudent to be aware of one's environment, aka where they would likely be in a self defense scenario, and choose a round accordingly. You don't want under penetration, but over penetration is just as bad or worse.

That's all.

 

[AMC]

Originally Posted By: nleksan

The point I was trying to make was how, while any round I listed will kill, the dynamics change quite a bit when there is more than just clothing between the barrel of a weapon and the target. It is, in my opinion, prudent to be aware of one's environment, aka where they would likely be in a self defense scenario, and choose a round accordingly. You don't want under penetration, but over penetration is just as bad or worse.


Exactly why your argument was very strange. The OP stated several times he is using this gun for home defense. He does not need to be able to shoot through car doors and he would probably error on the side of under penetration for a home defense situation anyways. Shooting through car doors is more of a need for highway patrol officers, not someone defending their house. Even if the 9mm was a poor stopper, which it isnt, he will have 19+1 rounds at his disposal if he gets the CZ sp-01.

Hokie- The next decision will be if you want the manual safety or decocker. I recommend the decocker simply because there is no way you can put the gun into a mode that will not fire. I feel the internal safety features and 10lb DA trigger pull make the pistol more than safe enough for anybody. The SP-01 with the manual safety does have a slightly smoother DA trigger pull and 4 less parts in the fire control group but you will really have to practice with the safety to make sure you are profiencient with it. However, one of the many things I love about the CZ pistols is the fact the safety only works with the hammer cocked. There is no way you can put the safety on with the hammer down. You really get your choice of a DA trigger pull or cocked and locked with a safety which is very rare these days. Also, all the CZ pistols have a safety designed into them so that the gun will not fire unless the hammer fully strikes the firing pin and the trigger is all the way to rear. This feature makes thumb decocking more safe if you are going to do it. A partial firing pin strike from a bad thumb decocking or any other reason will not fire the pistol. I have tried this myself and know for fact it is OK to do. I still recommend you NEVER thumb decock but rest assured only a full powered hammer strike will fire the pistol.

Either way let us know what you get and post some pics when you do!

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: AMC
Hokie- The next decision will be if you want the manual safety or decocker. I recommend the decocker simply because there is no way you can put the gun into a mode that will not fire.


Yeah, I go back and forth on that. Decocker model or safety model. I like the ergonomics of the safety model; despite selling my EMP, I do like 1911-style guns, and my other pistol (Ruger 22/45) has the 1911-style controls. So I'm familiar with them. On the other hand, my wife also needs to use this and honestly, I'd rather not have the issue of the safety being on for either one of us. And I suppose that I'm not totally comfortable with manually decocking the thing at home either.

I guess I lean toward the decocker model, because the only way go get the DA first strike on the safety model is to manually decock. But I could really go either way.

 

[supton]

Hokie, how do you like the 22/45? I tried one in the shop once, and found it too easy to hit the mag release for my liking. [Sorry for the thread drift here.]

 

[Hokiefyd]

I just love it. Mine is the Lite version, with the gold-colored barrel. That was a first or second year only color, and now they sell it only in black.

http://www.ruger.com/products/2245Lite/models.html

Correction: now they apparently have a Cobalt Anodize coming out this year. Looks cool.

But mine's the gold...looks like this:

This video really turned me on to it:



It shoots very straight, the magazines are very easy to load, it has a rail on the top so I could mount a light or a scope, and the rear sight is fully adjustable. The soft rubber grip panels are replaceable, but are very comfortable. I really enjoy this gun.