I havent the time to read all that right now, but I promise I will read it tomarrow...thanks for posting info to support your statements.
Second coat of wax?
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The best and most accurate overview is the Sonus USA article written by David Bynon. It accurately describes the differences in both products and terminology.
Most people get messed up when talking about "wax" and "polish" because the industry has masticated these terms to the point where they're almost meaningless. Add to it the common misapplication of the term "wax" as both a verb and noun (sometimes in the same sentence) and it's no wonder people get confused.
The easiest thing to do is think of products in terms of what they're used for. Read the product directions carefully, compare products and use some common sense. Consider what exactly do you want a particular product to do for you and use it for just that purpose.
Most people get messed up when talking about "wax" and "polish" because the industry has masticated these terms to the point where they're almost meaningless. Add to it the common misapplication of the term "wax" as both a verb and noun (sometimes in the same sentence) and it's no wonder people get confused.
The easiest thing to do is think of products in terms of what they're used for. Read the product directions carefully, compare products and use some common sense. Consider what exactly do you want a particular product to do for you and use it for just that purpose.
And you know, thats exactly what Ive done and continue to do, its really not that difficult if you are hands on.
But what I dont get or understand is where the debate is with this guy, RinconVTR...fact is every one of your links support what Ive been saying all along, and that is paint cleaner and polish arent the same! Sealant and wax arent the same! Layers are benificial if given time to cure, and even mulitiple layers of "wax" are benificial. So wheres the debate? Arent you reading the same things I am, after all you posted the links? I mean I can break it down in quotes, but feel this is getting redundant.
From the first link:
"Environmental conditions today demand more frequent washing and waxing in order to prevent costly damage to the outer layers of paint. Just as important as a second, and possibly a third coating of wax is to provide the maximum amount of protection in any one detailing session, (especially on the horizontal surfaces), it is also vitally important that you wax more often to maintain your finish. This is especially true if your car is a daily driver exposed to the elements and parked outdoors most of the time."
Even the second link says that waxes are layerable and even sites "The Law of Diminishing Returns" which says you can layer, but at some point you reach a "plateu"...
"That is to say, after the first, second and in some cases a third application/coating, any more product applied to the surface is merely removed when you wipe the excess off after waiting for the product to cure.
At this point you've reached a plateau (or limit), as to how much wax (natural or synthetic) a surface can hold. Once you reach this plateau, all further applications of wax simply become excess that will be removed (and thus wasted), during wipe-off because it has nowhere to attach and layer."
And all that means is give it more time to cure...sometimes will wait a day if the product become difficult to work with...if its my own car I will wait a week or more.
Same link:
"Then yes, you can layer to a certain point. For example, you can add multiple layers of layerable waxes until the limit to how much a given surface of an automotive paint can hold before each additional application is simply removed, or replaces a previously applied layer."
And thats why you let it cure.
Im really sorry, I read your links thinking there was something I was missing, something that could be learned...but it was all very elementry stuff that anybody "in the industry" should know...so I still dont understand how you can say that those products are the same and that layering isnt benificial...and that curing is difficult to prove.
Thanks for the remedial lesson...Im out...debate over.
Its not so much an arguement, I mean if I was wrong I was bound to learn something...who knows, maybe he did instead. *shrug*
This is what I read…directly copy/paste from Meguiars:
If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,
Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)
Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.
Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.
Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application? In a word: Possibly
· A brand new car
· A car with a brand new paint job
· An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition
· An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent condition
If any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.
Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.
Here at Meguiar's we don't make a wax based solely on pure Carnauba. All Meguiar's waxes are blended waxes that combine multiple ingredients for both.
End quotes........
Shortbusx, your getting lost in your assumptions and quoting portions of unfinished statements.
1. Only one site mentions curing, and that site was using a professional Carnuba wax. Stop assuming all waxes and sealants cure. Your own brand never mentions curing!!!
2. Wax and Sealants are one and the same by definition. They do the same darn thing. Nearly all links and statements put the two in the same sentence, and many clearly show Polish gets mixed up in the middle. The terms get misused, and that leads to confusion. Ditto with the term "Glaze".
3. You clearly stated you add polish over wax/sealants, and I said no harm, but wasted time. Polish's arent designed to last as long as wax and sealants. That was made cystal clear.
Your firing at me with blanks, and your only reading what you want to read. You have to read the whole answer and/or statements on those sites.
I've found nothing that contradicts what I've said all along, cause if I did, I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. I'm not here to be right, I'm here for the facts.
If you want to wax your car 2,3,4 times over the course of days with the same wax/sealer, AND THEN apply a polish...HAVE AT IT! But I sure wish I was your neighbor so I'd have some entertainment as I sit back with my feet up while I admire my own cars shine done in a couple hours.
Have fun. C-ya.
If your definition of the word "layer" follows that of definition used by some on the Internet,
Layer 1: To continually build a greater level of protection with each additional application, or layer, of a wax or protectant. (Natural or synthetic)
Layer 2: To continually increase shine, optical clarity, gloss, reflectivity, depth of color without end and/or after a plateau, or point of maximum potential has been achieved.
Then no, you cannot layer a wax, synthetic, natural, or otherwise.
Will more coats of a product make a finish deeper, darker, and wetter looking with each additional application? In a word: Possibly
· A brand new car
· A car with a brand new paint job
· An older car whose finish has been well maintained and is in excellent condition
· An older car whose finish has been professional restored to excellent condition
If any of the above holds true, then you will most certainly hit the wall, so to speak, reaching that plateau of perfection whereby further applications will not improve the results of the previously applied coating. Your finish will have reached its maximum potential in appearance value.
Once you hit 100% max potential, (or that plateau), it's time to stand back and admire the results, not continue to apply more and more coats.
Here at Meguiar's we don't make a wax based solely on pure Carnauba. All Meguiar's waxes are blended waxes that combine multiple ingredients for both.
End quotes........
Shortbusx, your getting lost in your assumptions and quoting portions of unfinished statements.
1. Only one site mentions curing, and that site was using a professional Carnuba wax. Stop assuming all waxes and sealants cure. Your own brand never mentions curing!!!
2. Wax and Sealants are one and the same by definition. They do the same darn thing. Nearly all links and statements put the two in the same sentence, and many clearly show Polish gets mixed up in the middle. The terms get misused, and that leads to confusion. Ditto with the term "Glaze".
3. You clearly stated you add polish over wax/sealants, and I said no harm, but wasted time. Polish's arent designed to last as long as wax and sealants. That was made cystal clear.
Your firing at me with blanks, and your only reading what you want to read. You have to read the whole answer and/or statements on those sites.
I've found nothing that contradicts what I've said all along, cause if I did, I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. I'm not here to be right, I'm here for the facts.
If you want to wax your car 2,3,4 times over the course of days with the same wax/sealer, AND THEN apply a polish...HAVE AT IT! But I sure wish I was your neighbor so I'd have some entertainment as I sit back with my feet up while I admire my own cars shine done in a couple hours.
Have fun. C-ya.
Im not making assumptions nor would I EVER apply a polish over a wax...I know the proper steps...its kinda pointless/hopeless to continue with this, especially if nobody has the guts to support either of the 2 of us on this or any point...you just continue to believe sealant and wax are the same even if it is "by definition"...and the rest of your nonsensical points. Fact is none of those links were 100% correct, you just chose to absorb the parts that were false...not everything on the internet is true and as some may have noticed some of those links contradicted the other links...and well we dont have to agree either.
If people think of car detailing in terms of *process* instead of *product*, it's a lot easier to comprehend. Additionally, it's wiser to think of products in terms of *what can they do?* versus whatever the mfr says.
Shorty is right, there was a good bit of contrary info in those links. I read them all and if I didn't know better, I'd now be confused as to what product does what. This is proof that the car care products industry should be blamed for most of the confusion surrounding the definition of products like waxes and polishes and sealants and cleaners.
It's true that some products can be interchanged to some extent. But that doesn't mean they're the same thing. I can blow my nose into a Kleenex, a napkin, a paper towel, a piece of clothing or any number of things. Does that mean they're all the same? Of course not.
Just the other day someone brought me their Mustang that had deposit spots all over it. It looked like blobs of tree sap. I tested about 7-8 products to find the one that would remove the blobs. I had a specific goal in mind (remove the surface blobs from the paint) and used all the products to attain that goal. One product worked best and I used that all over the car. Each product was different but they were used with one goal in mind.
BTW, waxes and sealants are NOT the same product! They might be used to do the same thing but their chemical composition is quite different. Subsequently waxes and sealant tend to look different, have unique "quirks" when being applied and/or removed, and have differences in their durability. Calling waxes and sealants "one and the same" is misleading IMO.
Shorty is right, there was a good bit of contrary info in those links. I read them all and if I didn't know better, I'd now be confused as to what product does what. This is proof that the car care products industry should be blamed for most of the confusion surrounding the definition of products like waxes and polishes and sealants and cleaners.
It's true that some products can be interchanged to some extent. But that doesn't mean they're the same thing. I can blow my nose into a Kleenex, a napkin, a paper towel, a piece of clothing or any number of things. Does that mean they're all the same? Of course not.
Just the other day someone brought me their Mustang that had deposit spots all over it. It looked like blobs of tree sap. I tested about 7-8 products to find the one that would remove the blobs. I had a specific goal in mind (remove the surface blobs from the paint) and used all the products to attain that goal. One product worked best and I used that all over the car. Each product was different but they were used with one goal in mind.
BTW, waxes and sealants are NOT the same product! They might be used to do the same thing but their chemical composition is quite different. Subsequently waxes and sealant tend to look different, have unique "quirks" when being applied and/or removed, and have differences in their durability. Calling waxes and sealants "one and the same" is misleading IMO.
Thank you!
But I think the biggest stretch is polish and paint cleaner being the "same". And even if all of these products were the "same"...they all have different appearnces.(period)
Here's my view on polishes, for those interested.
"Polish" to me is like an umbrella term, meaning it encompasses a lot of similar products. Everything from a light glaze to a heavy cut compound is a "polish" in my book as they play a similar role and, more importantly, are used at about the same place in the detailing process.
Any product that's used to improve the shine, remove or reduce paint defects and does not provide protection is probably a polish.
If the product both improve paint appearance (like a polish does) but also leave a protective coating behind is a "one step" or a cleaner wax. Most of the stuff you see at parts stores are cleaner waxes and one-step's.
I have everything from oily hand glazes to machine-use-only extreme cut compounds. But to me they all fall into the polish category. They are certainly NOT interchangable but they do have enough commonality to be classified together.
My view of the "World Of Paint Polishes", FWIW to y'all.
"Polish" to me is like an umbrella term, meaning it encompasses a lot of similar products. Everything from a light glaze to a heavy cut compound is a "polish" in my book as they play a similar role and, more importantly, are used at about the same place in the detailing process.
Any product that's used to improve the shine, remove or reduce paint defects and does not provide protection is probably a polish.
If the product both improve paint appearance (like a polish does) but also leave a protective coating behind is a "one step" or a cleaner wax. Most of the stuff you see at parts stores are cleaner waxes and one-step's.
I have everything from oily hand glazes to machine-use-only extreme cut compounds. But to me they all fall into the polish category. They are certainly NOT interchangable but they do have enough commonality to be classified together.
My view of the "World Of Paint Polishes", FWIW to y'all.
Bretfraz, your comments I agree with, except about wax and sealants.
Its important to remember there are only a few "catagories" any detail product can fall into. Regardless of the name/decription/composition in and on the hundreds of bottles out there, they all have to fall into a lesser number of "catagories". There are not dozens of "catagories" for all the hundreds of product out there. And you know what? Waxes and Sealants would far into the same "catagory" because they do the same thing by definition. You've all agreed they do the same thing, but stull aurgue they arent the same.
Here's another way to look at it:
If your thoughts/opinions held true with motor oil, then you could not allow synthetic motor oil to be in the same "catagory" as a conventional "motor oil". Catch my drift guys? Nautral or Synthetic, is it does the same thing, and it will be classified under the same catagory. Very simple.
There's an age old engineering phrase I live by: KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid.
Detailing is very simple, only you can make it complicated.
Its important to remember there are only a few "catagories" any detail product can fall into. Regardless of the name/decription/composition in and on the hundreds of bottles out there, they all have to fall into a lesser number of "catagories". There are not dozens of "catagories" for all the hundreds of product out there. And you know what? Waxes and Sealants would far into the same "catagory" because they do the same thing by definition. You've all agreed they do the same thing, but stull aurgue they arent the same.
Here's another way to look at it:
If your thoughts/opinions held true with motor oil, then you could not allow synthetic motor oil to be in the same "catagory" as a conventional "motor oil". Catch my drift guys? Nautral or Synthetic, is it does the same thing, and it will be classified under the same catagory. Very simple.
There's an age old engineering phrase I live by: KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid.
Detailing is very simple, only you can make it complicated.
Rincon,
I understand what you're saying. The problem was you intially stated that waxes and sealants were the same. We both know they're not, from a chemical, application or performance standpoint. But, yes, they both can be *classified* as last step products.
If you would have said that waxes and sealants fall into the same category, then described that category, no one would have had an issue with your comments. But you started off stating that "waxes and sealants are one in the same". We both know that's not an accurate statement.
It's no different than motor oil. Right now in my shop I have a bottle of "synthetic" Mobil One 10W-30 and a bottle of "conventional" 30W API SA oil. Are they the same thing? Well, depends on how you define it. Sure, they're both motor oils but their performance, application and composition are dramatically different.
We all understand KISS but sometimes you can KISS so much you've out-KISS'ed yourself. That's why its important to understand something about the products you're using. And if you're selling a product or service, you need to understand it well enough to explain the benefits of one over the other. Many times a too-simple explanation is just as bad as too-complicated one, especially if you're having a discussion on the internet where a simple explanation can take days to clear up when in person it would be understood in a few seconds.
I understand what you're saying. The problem was you intially stated that waxes and sealants were the same. We both know they're not, from a chemical, application or performance standpoint. But, yes, they both can be *classified* as last step products.
If you would have said that waxes and sealants fall into the same category, then described that category, no one would have had an issue with your comments. But you started off stating that "waxes and sealants are one in the same". We both know that's not an accurate statement.
It's no different than motor oil. Right now in my shop I have a bottle of "synthetic" Mobil One 10W-30 and a bottle of "conventional" 30W API SA oil. Are they the same thing? Well, depends on how you define it. Sure, they're both motor oils but their performance, application and composition are dramatically different.
We all understand KISS but sometimes you can KISS so much you've out-KISS'ed yourself. That's why its important to understand something about the products you're using. And if you're selling a product or service, you need to understand it well enough to explain the benefits of one over the other. Many times a too-simple explanation is just as bad as too-complicated one, especially if you're having a discussion on the internet where a simple explanation can take days to clear up when in person it would be understood in a few seconds.
Well after a week, the above post got to me...BTW, I never said I add polish over wax.
But thats not what got me...I kept thinking "what if this "pro" knows something I dont?"..."maybe hes right?"..."maybe layers dont work?"..."maybe I should just use anything, call it "wax" and only apply one?"
Even though all of the above was going through my head...I decided to do what I know and continue to be me and add layers...for clairty sake I applied Megs *gasp* "consumer line" Stage 2 polish, followed by Megs tan bottle Sealant and then followed it up with *gasp* Meg's "consumer" Stage 3 Carnuba...on my customers SL55 AMG...here are the results:
and then while I was wiping it down, I got all self concious about what youd said, so I began to look around the neighborhood, looking for people laughing at my efforts...
...but as hard as I looked, I never saw anybody laughing...and I was glad that I continued to use my lowly "consumer products" as well as my $20 Craftsman buffer...even on my customers $175k AMG!
Oh yeah, there was some loud laughter, after all...my customer after I explained to him what he was looking at(the door handle pic)...then he begged me to email him the pics.
See, Im not what you might call a "pro"...yet I get paid. This isnt my "job"...its one of many hobbies of mine, a "passion" if you will...and its not uncommon for me to spend about 8 hours on a car...to me reflection photos are rewarding enough, but getting to check out cars inside and out, that Id never own...and then to make them look better, even if just driven off the lot(and I do alot of those)...and then whats more is talking to the owner and thier reactions(I usually follow up emailing photos)...the payment is just icing/gravy/beer money.
Awe man...your getting all confused. Nobody said to apply one product and forget it! (There's no such product) Layering only applies to more than one application of a sealent/wax, or the same sealent/wax more than once. In short, it typically isnt worth the time and effort, thats it in a nut shell.
What you did with the orbital buffer and a manufactures 3 step process is right on the money. But thats not layering.
Keep in mind you probably do not need the 3 step process everytime time you want to detail the car. If there isnt a lot of oxidation or swirl marks, you can use Step 2&3 or just Step 3. Otherwise you end up removing more clear coat than needed at each wax job, and it will add up over time.
There are a number of manufactures with a 3 step process, and they do work very well!
Nice job on the car. Very nice.
What you did with the orbital buffer and a manufactures 3 step process is right on the money. But thats not layering.
Keep in mind you probably do not need the 3 step process everytime time you want to detail the car. If there isnt a lot of oxidation or swirl marks, you can use Step 2&3 or just Step 3. Otherwise you end up removing more clear coat than needed at each wax job, and it will add up over time.
There are a number of manufactures with a 3 step process, and they do work very well!
Nice job on the car. Very nice.
I have used the One Step and it is a good product. But Meguiars #6 cleans and polishes so well the extra effort of applying Meguiars #26 didn't seem to make it last any longer. The fact that all the cars sit outside and are washed with a good car washing soap at least weekly and looking at the beed factor the cars need another coat 3 times a year. I did like the results of the one step but Meguiars #6 only applyed 3 times a year seems to be the ticket for my Fla cars.
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