Schaeffer Oil and Stihl 4-Mix .....

[lilspenny]

Okay, I discontinued the use of Stihl Ultra in my Stihl 4-Mix equipment because it was leaving a steady stream of black laced oil throughout my motor. Not only that, but the smell of it is definitely not my favorite. So, believe it or not, despite proper "tuning" aka carburetor adjustment I cannot get Echo Red Armor to burn in such a way as to leave my spark plugs the proper color. This is running 50:1 on three mahines... fs100rx, fs131r, and br800. Same result in each machine. I've tried Honda HP2 @ 50:1, Amsoil Saber @50:1, and VP full synthetic at 40:1. VP is definitely the cleanest of the bunch, but the viscosity is so low I'm really not comfortable at 50:1.... Well, I did try 40:1 on the VP but then I got more carbon. It may be that carbon and 4-mix engines are a way of life, but I haven't given up as of now.

I contacted Schaeffer Oil to see what they might recommend and their response was less than good enough. Here's a bit of the email traffic that I have....

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How can we help you?:​

I run Stihl 4-mix equipment. Which of your oils is best for this equipment, and what ratio should I run to get the best lubrication and cleanliness? Their response.... Thanks for your question. What type of equipment are we talking about? My response.... Stihl 4-mix equipment. Blowers, string trimmers, hedge trimmers, and pole saws. It is a 4 stroke, air cooled engine which does not have an oil sump, and it runs on oil/gas mix just like 2 stroke engines.. Stihl recommends their Stihl Ultra. Their response.... Got it. Unfortunately we do not have anything like that. Right now it’s a little more of a special application. It’s a great concept but we have not developed anything as of now. Jeff Horton Technical Support Engineer St Louis, Missouri Direct Number 314.828.3682 Cel 618.796.9986

 

[Cujet]

That may be more a factor of spark plug heat range than oil ratio or brand. Are you having trouble with fouled plugs? Or other operational issues?

 

[JavierH19]

Never had that with st marine in my stihl's and other 2 strokes. Other people say stihl ultra is bad and is known for doing that.

https://opeforum.com/threads/red-armor-vs-stihl-ultra-datapoint.12060/

 

[lilspenny]

That may be more a factor of spark plug heat range than oil ratio or brand. Are you having trouble with fouled plugs? Or other operational issues?

Using the correct plug.. CMR6H I have too much black on the plug. I've properly gapped them at .020, tried multiple new plugs. No problem with plugs that have "fouled out" because I haven't let them get that far before I've brushed them clean with a toothbrush. I do feel as if the plugs could use a little more heat, but who am I to say that? Even running wide open with my br800 for 30 minutes will not produce the right color on my spark plug with Echo Red Armor or any oil I've tried except VP at 50:1. The VP may be giving good lubrication but at 50:1 I have concerns due to it's lower viscosity. At this point I'm considering the feasibility of using a synthetic marine 2 stroke oil but haven't done enough research as of now. I'm thinking that the 4-mix engines are a lot more delicate when it comes to a proper oil, and I don't think Stihl Ultra is the right choice either, because if it was the right choice I don't think they would be recommending it for their chainsaws that rev way past 10,000 rpm. I have a Stihl 029 saw that can handle Honda HP2 and Amsoil Saber just fine, but when it comes to the 4-mix engines I find that the carbon tends to build, even at 50:1. Not only that, but I have to tune to the oil which helps but cannot overcome the thicker viscosity. And while I'm at it I'm gonna go ahead and say that running any oil at thinner than 50:1 is not going to happen, because I believe that if that is necessary I haven't found the right oil. Pennzoil told me to run their snowmobile oil at 50:1 despite it's lower viscosity and flashpoint because it is "synthetic". Well, that might work. It's very possible that I'm going to find that perfect oil by reaching outside of the norm. Such as Schaeffer's 7000 boat oil that Tree Monkey and Richard Flagg say is so good. I agree that their results show a clean engine with good film strength but a Stihl 4-mix engine is definitely not a chainsaw engine. Compared to a chainsaw, the 4-mix is more like an old John Deere 2 cylinder put put put put tractor that runs on kerosene. I was put in a weird position insofar as my last 4-mix engines. One was a gift, and the other was bought because a family member works at a Stihl dealership. If not for that, I probably would have gone with Echo or Shindaiwa. But... I've seen the inside of Echo trimmers run on Red Armor and they are not clean, and they have issues with carbon clogging screens and catalytic converters. Chainsaws are different, they can process the oil with much more "applomb". I will say that my fs100rx 4-mix is 20 years old and has been superb insofar as reliability despite 15 years of heavy commercial use with various oils and 5 years of mostly dirty Stihl Ultra. I have not experienced the downside to 4-mix reliability that some others have. I do not, have not, and will never be the guy who says that string trimmers are designed to run wide open. That's crazy. Want to throw a rock and break out a storm door or a window, or worse? Then have at it, but I have learned, through 18 years of commercial mowing/trimming/blowing that running wide open is a disaster waiting on it's moment. There is a time and place for it, yes. I think I'll try the Schaeffer's and start at 45:1 and just see how it goes. Your opinion?

 

[Cujet]

I do feel as if the plugs could use a little more heat, but who am I to say that?

That was my point. Your situation may warrant the next heat range up, or three.

It is not unheard of for manufacturers to use a lower than ideal heat range plug.

No joke, I had a motorcycle with a Champion N8. Fouled in minutes. Needed an N2, fully 6 heat ranges up. Despite my fears, it never put a hole in the piston and never fouled again.

 

[lilspenny]

That was my point. Your situation may warrant the next heat range up, or three.

It is not unheard of for manufacturers to use a lower than ideal heat range plug.

No joke, I had a motorcycle with a Champion N8. Fouled in minutes. Needed an N2, fully 6 heat ranges up. Despite my fears, it never put a hole in the piston and never fouled again.

That's worth trying. I'll see what's out there. Those cmr6h plugs are the tiny 10mm crud. Thanks.

 

[Cujet]

As far as oil recommendation, these engines create, and are sensitive to, deposits, valves too. An EG-D or FD oil would be my first choice to reduce deposits.

The low drag VP oil is 30cst, @40ºc. Below the norm for 2t oils (35-50 cst) This low viscosity is not due to solvents, or additives, but a characteristic of the base stock. Said to produce more HP, via lower drag. My experience says nonsense. The oil works fine, and performs like other thin two stroke oils with adequate mix ratios.

In the end, a favorite oil remains the 44cst Castrol Power1 Racing 2T. Old school EGD low smoke, low deposit, synthetic.

Of course, I'm still using up the last gal of Mobil 1 2t. (Castrol is every bit as good)

 

[lilspenny]

As far as oil recommendation, these engines create, and are sensitive to, deposits, valves too. An EG-D or FD oil would be my first choice to reduce deposits.

The low drag VP oil is 30cst, @40ºc, which is below the norm for 2t oils (35-50 cst) and to make things more complex, this low viscosity is not due to solvents, or additives, but a characteristic of the base stock. The low viscosity is said to produce more HP, via lower drag. My experience says nonsense. The oil works fine, and performs like other thin two stroke oils with adequate mix ratios.

In the end, a favorite oil remains Castrol Power1 Racing 2T. Old school EGD low smoke, low deposit, synthetic.

I've looked for that Castrol and from what I see it's not available except maybe from someone on ebay. I have ordered two cmr5h plugs which is one step hotter. I'll then ditch the VP temporarily and try the Red Armor and see how it looks. I'd rather run the Red Armor over the VP because of it's lubricity. Where can I find the Castrol?

 

[Brian123]

I've looked for that Castrol and from what I see it's not available except maybe from someone on ebay. I have ordered two cmr5h plugs which is one step hotter. I'll then ditch the VP temporarily and try the Red Armor and see how it looks. I'd rather run the Red Armor over the VP because of it's lubricity. Where can I find the Castrol?

lilspenny, have you tried running Ethanol Free Gas with your 2-stroke equipment? If you have not done this, it is worth a shot!

 

[lilspenny]

lilspenny, have you tried running Ethanol Free Gas with your 2-stroke equipment? If you have not done this, it is worth a shot!

Yes, that's all I run. One thing I might try is 89 octane. I've been running 93 octane, and I've bought that from two locations which are about 60 miles apart and they are different colors. One is greener in appearance for whatever reason. No telling what's in them, or not in them. The reason I've gotten 93 octane is in case the fuel gets a little older, which in my case would only be 3 months old at the oldest. But... I do believe I should try some 89 to see how it works. I've ordered cmr5h plugs instead of the stock cmr6h to see if going one step hotter will help. If it were July I might not do that, but being a little cooler now it might be a good idea.

 

[thastinger]

I run the VP at 40:1 with E0 fuel in all my Stihl stuff.

 

[Brian123]

Yes, that's all I run. One thing I might try is 89 octane. I've been running 93 octane, and I've bought that from two locations which are about 60 miles apart and they are different colors. One is greener in appearance for whatever reason. No telling what's in them, or not in them. The reason I've gotten 93 octane is in case the fuel gets a little older, which in my case would only be 3 months old at the oldest. But... I do believe I should try some 89 to see how it works. I've ordered cmr5h plugs instead of the stock cmr6h to see if going one step hotter will help. If it were July I might not do that, but being a little cooler now it might be a good idea.

We have the Ethanol Free fuel thing going for you, another option is Maxima K2 2 stroke oil. If your equipment is meant for 89 Octane and you are using 93 octane, I am not sure that would be an issue.

The other thought is how are you running your equipment, you start it up and let it idle for so many seconds and then you use your equipment. It seems that 2 stroke equipment does not like to idle, once it is warmed up you run it pretty hard. I did watch a video where a guy liked Schaeffer's tcw-3 2 stroke oil run at 32 to 1

It could be your Stihl 4 mix engine is what it is!
If the VP at 50 to 1 has less carbon, stick with it, otherwise do a search on Maxima K2 2 stroke oil and see what you see, it is worth a shot giving this oil a try.

 

[lilspenny]

We have the Ethanol Free fuel thing going for you, another option is Maxima K2 2 stroke oil. If your equipment is meant for 89 Octane and you are using 93 octane, I am not sure that would be an issue.

The other thought is how are you running your equipment, you start it up and let it idle for so many seconds and then you use your equipment. It seems that 2 stroke equipment does not like to idle, once it is warmed up you run it pretty hard. I did watch a video where a guy liked Schaeffer's tcw-3 2 stroke oil run at 32 to 1

It could be your Stihl 4 mix engine is what it is!
If the VP at 50 to 1 has less carbon, stick with it, otherwise do a search on Maxima K2 2 stroke oil and see what you see, it is worth a shot giving this oil a try.

Thanks Brian, I appreciate your courtesy and time in helping me. I have indeed considered the K2 oil, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. The reason is that the viscosity is a little high. It may very well be fine. The HP2 definitely did not work the way I wanted because it seemed to slow my trimmers down, and I feel it's probably because of the viscosity. I could have run it at 70:1 and hoped for the best but I don't do that. There was nothing I could adjust that would overcome the slow revving and probably slower top rpm. The Saber wasn't so bad, just a little dirty, which was why I bought the VP to begin with. When I crank the machines I do not let them idle but for a few seconds and then I start to slowly get them up to operating temp by gradual throttle increases. The whole warm-up process takes a minute or two at the most. I wish a longer warm-up would work, but since mixed gas is involved I know that's not going to happen. The thing here is not that I'm having poor engine performance with Red Armor, or even Saber. I'm just tryng to eliminate some of the potential carbon, and I haven't been happy with the way it is building. Since I have two relatively new 4-mix machines, I'm trying to sort this out now instead of waiting for the carbon to get bad. When I was running the HP2 in my chainsaw I was stunned at the way the carbon absolutely went away from the piston crown, and it was replaced by this clear oily sheen. I didn't know that was even possible. That saw was bought in 1995, really hasn't been used very much... at most 100 hours. Since I retired a couple of years ago, and been through a serious bout with covid I decided to restore all of my old equipment and pass them along to my sons in case I were to pass away because then they would get machines that needed restoration. So, my fs100rx has been gone over from head to toe. I've spent about as much money on it as it would cost to buy a new trimmer, but to me it's worth it because that trimmer was the first decent trimmer I bought for my business. The machine worked fine, but I call it preparing the machines for their next life. The only thing left to fix/repair/replace is the engine seals, and I want one of my sons to witness that repair with the hope that he will feel confident working on those unique machines. I have a good understanding of lawn equipment, having grown up in a dealership that sold saws, lawnmowers, tractors, combines, hay balers, etc... and I've always done all of my repairs and maintenance. Truth be known it's probably inconsequential that my new 4-mix engines are gaining carbon. It's not going to kill them, but I'm on a mission to find the best oil for those things because I kicked Stihl Ultra to the curb and then stomped it. I hate that stuff. I will run Billy Bob's Second Hand Lard before I run Stihl Ultra again. Ultra takes the joy out of running lawn equipment. It's dirty and it stinks. So... how does the K2 smell? Because, believe it or not, I'm a sniffer.

 

[lilspenny]

Well a new day and new development. VP 50:1 with 93 non-ethanol has cleaned the fs131r piston to perfection. Ran 2 tanks today. My br800 ran 2 tanks of 50:1 Saber with a newly gapped plug @ .025 instead of the .020 specification and it looks great. The larger gap improved the high speed as well. I got 2 cmr5h plugs today which is one step hotter, but I'm going to wait before installing them. I increased the gap on the fs131r and it ran worse, but the plug is some cheap factory "Stihl" branded garbage. Tomorrow I'm gonna install a new ngk cmr6h gapped at .025. I bet it helps. But... will the fs131r run clean with the .025 and 50:1 Saber? Lord, I hope so. I've looked at the various oils on the market and I've been trying to find the ones that have similar viscosity as Stihl Ultra. There are not many FD oils that do. What I'm finding is too many oils have that vegetable oil stuff that Stihl Ultra has, and that's a no for me dog. I bet the grease barrel behind KFC would smell the same as Ultra. Saber may work fine, and if it does that's good. I am not an Amsoil fanboy but if it works.... Schaeffer says they don't have an oil for 4-mix engines and it seemed to me that they had never heard of them. I called Klotz to get sds info because it's not on their website. So, they emailed the sds to me and the info is very sparse. Amazing how such poor communication gets a free ride since their customers are so pleased. Castrol seems to only have one 2 cycle oil in the USA besides snowmobile oil and their is no sds on the web. No facts, no figures. Mobile? Nothing. Shell? Boat oil and snowmobile oil. As many people as there are that use 2 stroke oil and such a hassle to get info. Anyone ever run Motul 710 2t? Thanks for your help and time.

 

[TLAR640]

Well a new day and new development. VP 50:1 with 93 non-ethanol has cleaned the fs131r piston to perfection. Ran 2 tanks today. My br800 ran 2 tanks of 50:1 Saber with a newly gapped plug @ .025 instead of the .020 specification and it looks great. The larger gap improved the high speed as well. I got 2 cmr5h plugs today which is one step hotter, but I'm going to wait before installing them. I increased the gap on the fs131r and it ran worse, but the plug is some cheap factory "Stihl" branded garbage. Tomorrow I'm gonna install a new ngk cmr6h gapped at .025. I bet it helps. But... will the fs131r run clean with the .025 and 50:1 Saber? Lord, I hope so. I've looked at the various oils on the market and I've been trying to find the ones that have similar viscosity as Stihl Ultra. There are not many FD oils that do. What I'm finding is too many oils have that vegetable oil stuff that Stihl Ultra has, and that's a no for me dog. I bet the grease barrel behind KFC would smell the same as Ultra. Saber may work fine, and if it does that's good. I am not an Amsoil fanboy but if it works.... Schaeffer says they don't have an oil for 4-mix engines and it seemed to me that they had never heard of them. I called Klotz to get sds info because it's not on their website. So, they emailed the sds to me and the info is very sparse. Amazing how such poor communication gets a free ride since their customers are so pleased. Castrol seems to only have one 2 cycle oil in the USA besides snowmobile oil and their is no sds on the web. No facts, no figures. Mobile? Nothing. Shell? Boat oil and snowmobile oil. As many people as there are that use 2 stroke oil and such a hassle to get info. Anyone ever run Motul 710 2t? Thanks for your help and time.

I run Motul 710 2T at 40:1 with 90 octane pump gas in my Husqvarna trimmer, chainsaw and Stihl BR 800 X blower. It burns clean, has a pleasant, mild smell (to me) and everything runs strong. The trimmer and blower took a lot of fiddling with the air/fuel screw to start with 2-3 pulls and get a brown/gray colored plug. The chainsaw is 'Auto-tune' so it adjusted itself. I highly recommend this oil. Good luck in your quest.

 

[lilspenny]

Why do you tin it took so much adjustment? Viscosity?

 

[grasscutter]

Okay, I discontinued the use of Stihl Ultra in my Stihl 4-Mix equipment because it was leaving a steady stream of black laced oil throughout my motor.

​

Man I just don't have that issue at all. I run STIHL Ultra exclusively in all my equipment that requires 2-cycle fuel.

I mix one 6.4 ounce bottle with 2.501 gallons of 91 octane gasoline.

 

[TLAR640]

Why do you tin it took so much adjustment? Viscosity?

No, the viscosity of 710 2T is comparable to Stihl, Echo, VP Racing, etc. I was probably being too conservative with the adjustments.

 

[lilspenny]

Man I just don't have that issue at all. I run STIHL Ultra exclusively in all my equipment that requires 2-cycle fuel.

I mix one 6.4 ounce bottle with 2.501 gallons of 91 octane gasoline.

What brand and model numbers are you using? My br800 has been a challenge. My fs100rx and fs131r are clean. The 100 was very dirty (Stihl Ultra) and the 131 was showing signs (Saber and HP2). VP oil cleaned those. BR800 is now on 50:1 Saber with a cmr5h plug instead of the cmr6h. One step hotter. So far the plug looks promising. If it were hot summertime I would not use the hotter plug. If I have to use VP I will, but 45:1 with cmr6h. The spark plug factory gap is .020 and the change to .025 has helped. I think Stihl was planning for electrode wear, but it hinders a complete burn, at least on my br800.

 

[Japanese]

No, the viscosity of 710 2T is comparable to Stihl, Echo, VP Racing, etc.

VP racing is twice as thin (lower viscosity), I think about 8.5cSt at 100°C than the the rest of the oils listed that are about 11-12cSt at 100°C. To be more visual the viscosity of VP Racing is like a SAE20 oil and the rest of the oils have viscosity is upper SAE30 oil.