Man! P/K-R4ES11 is WAYYY too hot for anything even a civic HX. I would have 6 in there max. Even #5 (hot also) are just for cold emissions (minimise cold running misfire count) and are too hot for normal driving IMO on most any engine and compromise power and torque. Smog legal engine tunes on ecoboxes are a big compromise, esp in the 90's vintage.
Running with a Slight Sputter?
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Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Man! P/K-R4ES11 is WAYYY too hot for anything even a civic HX. I would have 6 in there max. Even #5 (hot also) are just for cold emissions (minimise cold running misfire count) and are too hot for normal driving IMO on most any engine and compromise power and torque. Smog legal engine tunes on ecoboxes are a big compromise, esp in the 90's vintage.
Ok, BKR5E-11 is what they call for as standard. The "4" is for hotter and the "6" is for cooler. Even NGK says the "5" is the plug. Are you saying the "5" is just a politically correct plug? And that the "6" will give me better performance? Here in VA we don't have to pass emission tests so I'm much more interested in a well running finely tuned machine.
Man! P/K-R4ES11 is WAYYY too hot for anything even a civic HX. I would have 6 in there max. Even #5 (hot also) are just for cold emissions (minimise cold running misfire count) and are too hot for normal driving IMO on most any engine and compromise power and torque. Smog legal engine tunes on ecoboxes are a big compromise, esp in the 90's vintage.
Ok, BKR5E-11 is what they call for as standard. The "4" is for hotter and the "6" is for cooler. Even NGK says the "5" is the plug. Are you saying the "5" is just a politically correct plug? And that the "6" will give me better performance? Here in VA we don't have to pass emission tests so I'm much more interested in a well running finely tuned machine.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Being a 94 you need to find someone with a scope, it will show any sort of ignition failure quickly.
This is right. I just bought two scopes in perfect condition. Not many people have them anymore, and even less know how to use them. It is what you need to diagnose the. Anything else is just guessing. There should be some in your area that knows how to use it and has one.
Being a 94 you need to find someone with a scope, it will show any sort of ignition failure quickly.
This is right. I just bought two scopes in perfect condition. Not many people have them anymore, and even less know how to use them. It is what you need to diagnose the. Anything else is just guessing. There should be some in your area that knows how to use it and has one.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Being a 94 you need to find someone with a scope, it will show any sort of ignition failure quickly.
This is right. I just bought two scopes in perfect condition. Not many people have them anymore, and even less know how to use them. It is what you need to diagnose the. Anything else is just guessing. There should be some in your area that knows how to use it and has one.
Being a 94 you need to find someone with a scope, it will show any sort of ignition failure quickly.
This is right. I just bought two scopes in perfect condition. Not many people have them anymore, and even less know how to use them. It is what you need to diagnose the. Anything else is just guessing. There should be some in your area that knows how to use it and has one.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Man! P/K-R4ES11 is WAYYY too hot for anything even a civic HX. I would have 6 in there max. Even #5 (hot also) are just for cold emissions (minimise cold running misfire count) and are too hot for normal driving IMO on most any engine and compromise power and torque. Smog legal engine tunes on ecoboxes are a big compromise, esp in the 90's vintage.
Ok, BKR5E-11 is what they call for as standard. The "4" is for hotter and the "6" is for cooler. Even NGK says the "5" is the plug. Are you saying the "5" is just a politically correct plug? And that the "6" will give me better performance? Here in VA we don't have to pass emission tests so I'm much more interested in a well running finely tuned machine.
WIKI has a great article on plugs and they cover heat range:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_plug
In case you are unfamiliar with what the whole idea of a plug's heat range is about.
Essentially, the plugs you have now, being too hot, may be causing detonation. And this would happen right where you are having your issue: working the engine hard in the lower RPM's.
Now going too cold isn't going to be beneficial either. You can affect the ability of the plug to keep itself clean. This isn't a race car, you don't have a carb, and so much of the heat range selection process that would apply to those situations doesn't apply to your fuel injected setup which has a decent A/F control process and isn't tuned for the 1/4 mile.
Use the plug the manufacturer recommends. They tested the engine and the plug selection is based on many factors, including emissions as ARCO touched upon. If you've ever tracked misfire count, timing retard and knock sensor activity, you'll appreciate that he's being a bit over-the-top here, but that's how he posts. There is a grain of truth in what he's saying, but it is a little "old school" and isn't nearly as applicable when dealing with injected engines.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Man! P/K-R4ES11 is WAYYY too hot for anything even a civic HX. I would have 6 in there max. Even #5 (hot also) are just for cold emissions (minimise cold running misfire count) and are too hot for normal driving IMO on most any engine and compromise power and torque. Smog legal engine tunes on ecoboxes are a big compromise, esp in the 90's vintage.
Ok, BKR5E-11 is what they call for as standard. The "4" is for hotter and the "6" is for cooler. Even NGK says the "5" is the plug. Are you saying the "5" is just a politically correct plug? And that the "6" will give me better performance? Here in VA we don't have to pass emission tests so I'm much more interested in a well running finely tuned machine.
WIKI has a great article on plugs and they cover heat range:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_plug
In case you are unfamiliar with what the whole idea of a plug's heat range is about.
Essentially, the plugs you have now, being too hot, may be causing detonation. And this would happen right where you are having your issue: working the engine hard in the lower RPM's.
Now going too cold isn't going to be beneficial either. You can affect the ability of the plug to keep itself clean. This isn't a race car, you don't have a carb, and so much of the heat range selection process that would apply to those situations doesn't apply to your fuel injected setup which has a decent A/F control process and isn't tuned for the 1/4 mile.
Use the plug the manufacturer recommends. They tested the engine and the plug selection is based on many factors, including emissions as ARCO touched upon. If you've ever tracked misfire count, timing retard and knock sensor activity, you'll appreciate that he's being a bit over-the-top here, but that's how he posts. There is a grain of truth in what he's saying, but it is a little "old school" and isn't nearly as applicable when dealing with injected engines.
Quote:
What would I do with it?
A vacuum gauge is still one of the best diagnostic tools you can own, they are inexpensive and can give you an incredible amount of information quickly.
Scan tools are a wonderful thing but what happens when you get a code that basically says the ECM knows there is an issue but has no real idea what it is, e.g. Nissans P2a03/P2a00.
You have to go old school, there is no other way.
Click on the little scenarios buttons out on this site for a little demo on what info can be had by using this tool.
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm
Another article.
http://www.iwemalpg.com/Vacuum_gauge.htm
What would I do with it?
A vacuum gauge is still one of the best diagnostic tools you can own, they are inexpensive and can give you an incredible amount of information quickly.
Scan tools are a wonderful thing but what happens when you get a code that basically says the ECM knows there is an issue but has no real idea what it is, e.g. Nissans P2a03/P2a00.
You have to go old school, there is no other way.
Click on the little scenarios buttons out on this site for a little demo on what info can be had by using this tool.
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm
Another article.
http://www.iwemalpg.com/Vacuum_gauge.htm
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: Trav
Quote:
What would I do with it?
A vacuum gauge is still one of the best diagnostic tools you can own, they are inexpensive and can give you an incredible amount of information quickly.
Scan tools are a wonderful thing but what happens when you get a code that basically says the ECM knows there is an issue but has no real idea what it is, e.g. Nissans P2a03/P2a00.
You have to go old school, there is no other way.
Click on the little scenarios buttons out on this site for a little demo on what info can be had by using this tool.
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm
Another article.
http://www.iwemalpg.com/Vacuum_gauge.htm
+1 for Trav's info here
Vacuum gauges are extremely useful and don't care what diagnostic connector your vehicle has under the dash or hood. They can tell you a great deal and the links he provided are a wealth of information.
I would still put the right plugs in it for starters though
Quote:
What would I do with it?
A vacuum gauge is still one of the best diagnostic tools you can own, they are inexpensive and can give you an incredible amount of information quickly.
Scan tools are a wonderful thing but what happens when you get a code that basically says the ECM knows there is an issue but has no real idea what it is, e.g. Nissans P2a03/P2a00.
You have to go old school, there is no other way.
Click on the little scenarios buttons out on this site for a little demo on what info can be had by using this tool.
http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm
Another article.
http://www.iwemalpg.com/Vacuum_gauge.htm
+1 for Trav's info here
Vacuum gauges are extremely useful and don't care what diagnostic connector your vehicle has under the dash or hood. They can tell you a great deal and the links he provided are a wealth of information.
I would still put the right plugs in it for starters though
Quote:
I would still put the right plugs in it for starters though
For sure, without the correct plugs further diagnosis is futile.
I would still put the right plugs in it for starters though
For sure, without the correct plugs further diagnosis is futile.
I was waiting for my valve cover gasket to get here (by this WED) before I pulled the plugs. I will change plugs then. I really appreciate your advice.
I decided to pull the CEL codes (have to do it manually, what a PITA) and got a 32 EGR Sensor. After googling in the Nissan forums it seems the rubber hose in the bottom of the EGR is a problem child on this particular engine. I reached under neath to gently massage it and it massaged right off into my finger tips. I ran the car up the street without it and it still surged like usual. Didn't make any difference with it off. Just FYI...
If the EGR code means anything important as to the running of the car, let me know. If it is emissions....
I decided to pull the CEL codes (have to do it manually, what a PITA) and got a 32 EGR Sensor. After googling in the Nissan forums it seems the rubber hose in the bottom of the EGR is a problem child on this particular engine. I reached under neath to gently massage it and it massaged right off into my finger tips. I ran the car up the street without it and it still surged like usual. Didn't make any difference with it off. Just FYI...
If the EGR code means anything important as to the running of the car, let me know. If it is emissions....
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
EGR problems can cause all kinds of issues. For example, if the engine is expecting EGR and the valve is plugged, it will cause light throttle detonation.
However, under heavy load conditions, the EGR valve is closed. So it wouldn't explain your issue. Unless of course the valve assembly is a source of a vacuum leak.
Is this "surging" you just mentioned the same as the "sputtering" you described in your OP?
However, under heavy load conditions, the EGR valve is closed. So it wouldn't explain your issue. Unless of course the valve assembly is a source of a vacuum leak.
Is this "surging" you just mentioned the same as the "sputtering" you described in your OP?
Sounds like the vacuum line to the EGR was probably leaking, if it crumbled in your hands. I'd replace it and retest.
This is one thing that the aforementioned vacuum pump would be good for, testing all your vacuum lines. Replace any that have hairline cracks or any other condition that looks like deterioration.
This is one thing that the aforementioned vacuum pump would be good for, testing all your vacuum lines. Replace any that have hairline cracks or any other condition that looks like deterioration.
Some engines especially older ones seemingly couldn't care less if the EGR was working or not but not all.
A malfunction in the EGR system can certainly cause drivability issues.
It sounds like you have a vacuum operated EGR, the EGR will not receive a vacuum signal at idle but if that hose has a leak you will have a vacuum leak right in the RPM area you are having problems in.
A malfunction in the EGR system can certainly cause drivability issues.
It sounds like you have a vacuum operated EGR, the EGR will not receive a vacuum signal at idle but if that hose has a leak you will have a vacuum leak right in the RPM area you are having problems in.
If you are at slightly higher RPMs, say just enough to have no sputtering, does that make it do it's sputtering thing? If so that's misfire under load which is almost always secondary ignition:
coil, cap, rotor, wires, plugs: all stuff you replaced already except the coil.
If this isn't what you get, please disregard the rest of this.
Of course all those plug changes could have given you a spread terminal on one of the wires or maybe one that isn't seated properly or a scratched boot. If the distributor is aftermarket, well, that's not a good car to be putting an aftermarket distributor rotor on. You also can't be sure nobody's ever dropped that rotor on a hard floor.
I would visually look for signs of carbon tracking on both the inside and outside of the cap, the outside of the coil, and on the porcelain of the plugs. Tracks on the plugs usually indicate a problem with the wire boot not the plug, but sometimes you can have a crack in the porcelain that looks like the track from a bad wire. If no problem is found replace the rotor.
If you can train someone to load the engine somewhat for a few seconds (without burning up the clutch if this has a manual trans) you may find that a mist of the cheap blue washer fluid (the kind with methanol in it - better conductivity than plain water) can inspire an arc to make itself known. Just don't get your eyebrows or nosehairs too close because that fine mist can flash over when it finds the arc.
Addition:
Cheapvodka vodak would probably be a good less toxic alternative to washer fluid, but more expensive. For as little as would be needed that higher price isn't that big of a deal.
coil, cap, rotor, wires, plugs: all stuff you replaced already except the coil.
If this isn't what you get, please disregard the rest of this.
Of course all those plug changes could have given you a spread terminal on one of the wires or maybe one that isn't seated properly or a scratched boot. If the distributor is aftermarket, well, that's not a good car to be putting an aftermarket distributor rotor on. You also can't be sure nobody's ever dropped that rotor on a hard floor.
I would visually look for signs of carbon tracking on both the inside and outside of the cap, the outside of the coil, and on the porcelain of the plugs. Tracks on the plugs usually indicate a problem with the wire boot not the plug, but sometimes you can have a crack in the porcelain that looks like the track from a bad wire. If no problem is found replace the rotor.
If you can train someone to load the engine somewhat for a few seconds (without burning up the clutch if this has a manual trans) you may find that a mist of the cheap blue washer fluid (the kind with methanol in it - better conductivity than plain water) can inspire an arc to make itself known. Just don't get your eyebrows or nosehairs too close because that fine mist can flash over when it finds the arc.
Addition:
Cheap
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
EGR problems can cause all kinds of issues. For example, if the engine is expecting EGR and the valve is plugged, it will cause light throttle detonation.
However, under heavy load conditions, the EGR valve is closed. So it wouldn't explain your issue. Unless of course the valve assembly is a source of a vacuum leak.
Is this "surging" you just mentioned the same as the "sputtering" you described in your OP?
YES
EGR problems can cause all kinds of issues. For example, if the engine is expecting EGR and the valve is plugged, it will cause light throttle detonation.
However, under heavy load conditions, the EGR valve is closed. So it wouldn't explain your issue. Unless of course the valve assembly is a source of a vacuum leak.
Is this "surging" you just mentioned the same as the "sputtering" you described in your OP?
YES
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Ok, BKR5E-11 is what they call for as standard. The "4" is for hotter and the "6" is for cooler. Even NGK says the "5" is the plug. Are you saying the "5" is just a politically correct plug? And that the "6" will give me better performance? Here in VA we don't have to pass emission tests so I'm much more interested in a well running finely tuned machine.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Essentially, the plugs you have now, being too hot, may be causing detonation. And this would happen right where you are having your issue: working the engine hard in the lower RPM's.
OVERKILL, you have it backwards. NGK, numbers their plugs so that the lower number denotes a hotter plug. So his NGK 5 is cooler than the 4 he took out.
Anyway, it sounds like a non issue as there is more than one plug listed for the application.
Ok, BKR5E-11 is what they call for as standard. The "4" is for hotter and the "6" is for cooler. Even NGK says the "5" is the plug. Are you saying the "5" is just a politically correct plug? And that the "6" will give me better performance? Here in VA we don't have to pass emission tests so I'm much more interested in a well running finely tuned machine.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Essentially, the plugs you have now, being too hot, may be causing detonation. And this would happen right where you are having your issue: working the engine hard in the lower RPM's.
OVERKILL, you have it backwards. NGK, numbers their plugs so that the lower number denotes a hotter plug. So his NGK 5 is cooler than the 4 he took out.
Anyway, it sounds like a non issue as there is more than one plug listed for the application.
In the interest of clarity I hereby propose we establish some definitions for use as this discussion contnues. My suggestions are these:
-hesitation: delayed response to increased throttle angle
-common hesitation: doesn't feel right in some way
-stumble: brief loss of power
-bog: condition in which a demand for more power results in less power
-common sputter: vibration associated with loss of power
-proper sputter: irregular vibration associated with loss of power
-surge: a single short lived increase in engine speed
-surging: engine rythmically cycling between a lower speed and a higher speed when a steady speed is expected
-roughness: a regular (not irregular) vibration which may be associated with loss of power
-octoroks: octopus-like land creatures that launches rocks from their mouths
-tektite: spiderlike monster indigenous to mountainous regions known for it's style of pouncing upon it's enemies
By these definitions, the irregular equivalent of a rough idle would be a sputtering idle. Does this work?
-hesitation: delayed response to increased throttle angle
-common hesitation: doesn't feel right in some way
-stumble: brief loss of power
-bog: condition in which a demand for more power results in less power
-common sputter: vibration associated with loss of power
-proper sputter: irregular vibration associated with loss of power
-surge: a single short lived increase in engine speed
-surging: engine rythmically cycling between a lower speed and a higher speed when a steady speed is expected
-roughness: a regular (not irregular) vibration which may be associated with loss of power
-octoroks: octopus-like land creatures that launches rocks from their mouths
-tektite: spiderlike monster indigenous to mountainous regions known for it's style of pouncing upon it's enemies
By these definitions, the irregular equivalent of a rough idle would be a sputtering idle. Does this work?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Ok, BKR5E-11 is what they call for as standard. The "4" is for hotter and the "6" is for cooler. Even NGK says the "5" is the plug. Are you saying the "5" is just a politically correct plug? And that the "6" will give me better performance? Here in VA we don't have to pass emission tests so I'm much more interested in a well running finely tuned machine.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Essentially, the plugs you have now, being too hot, may be causing detonation. And this would happen right where you are having your issue: working the engine hard in the lower RPM's.
OVERKILL, you have it backwards. NGK, numbers their plugs so that the lower number denotes a hotter plug. So his NGK 5 is cooler than the 4 he took out.
Anyway, it sounds like a non issue as there is more than one plug listed for the application.
Eric:
Respectfully, I don't have it backwards, please read through the thread again.
He hasn't taken the 4's out yet, they are still in the engine. Those are the plugs I am referring to as too hot.
The OE plugs, which are the ones he put in and then the mechanic took out when the owner he bought the car from had it serviced, were 5's, and he (the mechanic) replaced them with the 4's.
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I put new NGK 5... plugs in 2000 miles ago when the original owner had it. I changed the wires, distributer, rotor, etc. I was just doing the lady a favor. I didn't know that she had taken it in to a local shop between the time I replaced the plugs and they time I bought it from her and they replaced her plugs. I know...sad but true...
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I was waiting for my valve cover gasket to get here (by this WED) before I pulled the plugs. I will change plugs then. I really appreciate your advice.
And going by NGK's site, they ONLY list the "5" for this application, not the 4 or the 6, so if you have a site that lists the other heat ranges as acceptable, I'd love to see it
-Chris
Originally Posted By: Gebo
Ok, BKR5E-11 is what they call for as standard. The "4" is for hotter and the "6" is for cooler. Even NGK says the "5" is the plug. Are you saying the "5" is just a politically correct plug? And that the "6" will give me better performance? Here in VA we don't have to pass emission tests so I'm much more interested in a well running finely tuned machine.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Essentially, the plugs you have now, being too hot, may be causing detonation. And this would happen right where you are having your issue: working the engine hard in the lower RPM's.
OVERKILL, you have it backwards. NGK, numbers their plugs so that the lower number denotes a hotter plug. So his NGK 5 is cooler than the 4 he took out.
Anyway, it sounds like a non issue as there is more than one plug listed for the application.
Eric:
Respectfully, I don't have it backwards, please read through the thread again.
He hasn't taken the 4's out yet, they are still in the engine. Those are the plugs I am referring to as too hot.
The OE plugs, which are the ones he put in and then the mechanic took out when the owner he bought the car from had it serviced, were 5's, and he (the mechanic) replaced them with the 4's.
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I put new NGK 5... plugs in 2000 miles ago when the original owner had it. I changed the wires, distributer, rotor, etc. I was just doing the lady a favor. I didn't know that she had taken it in to a local shop between the time I replaced the plugs and they time I bought it from her and they replaced her plugs. I know...sad but true...
Originally Posted By: Gebo
I was waiting for my valve cover gasket to get here (by this WED) before I pulled the plugs. I will change plugs then. I really appreciate your advice.
And going by NGK's site, they ONLY list the "5" for this application, not the 4 or the 6, so if you have a site that lists the other heat ranges as acceptable, I'd love to see it
-Chris
Originally Posted By: yonyon
In the interest of clarity I hereby propose we establish some definitions for use as this discussion contnues. My suggestions are these:
-hesitation: delayed response to increased throttle angle
-common hesitation: doesn't feel right in some way
-stumble: brief loss of power
-bog: condition in which a demand for more power results in less power
-common sputter: vibration associated with loss of power
-proper sputter: irregular vibration associated with loss of power
-surge: a single short lived increase in engine speed
-surging: engine rythmically cycling between a lower speed and a higher speed when a steady speed is expected
-roughness: a regular (not irregular) vibration which may be associated with loss of power
-octoroks: octopus-like land creatures that launches rocks from their mouths
-tektite: spiderlike monster indigenous to mountainous regions known for it's style of pouncing upon it's enemies
By these definitions, the irregular equivalent of a rough idle would be a sputtering idle. Does this work?
No, to be accurate utilizing your descriptive terminology:
It's a stumbling surging bog combination under somewhat less than "petal to the metal" acceleration that is most pronounced on a 34 degree upslope between 2000-3100 RPM's.
In the interest of clarity I hereby propose we establish some definitions for use as this discussion contnues. My suggestions are these:
-hesitation: delayed response to increased throttle angle
-common hesitation: doesn't feel right in some way
-stumble: brief loss of power
-bog: condition in which a demand for more power results in less power
-common sputter: vibration associated with loss of power
-proper sputter: irregular vibration associated with loss of power
-surge: a single short lived increase in engine speed
-surging: engine rythmically cycling between a lower speed and a higher speed when a steady speed is expected
-roughness: a regular (not irregular) vibration which may be associated with loss of power
-octoroks: octopus-like land creatures that launches rocks from their mouths
-tektite: spiderlike monster indigenous to mountainous regions known for it's style of pouncing upon it's enemies
By these definitions, the irregular equivalent of a rough idle would be a sputtering idle. Does this work?
No, to be accurate utilizing your descriptive terminology:
It's a stumbling surging bog combination under somewhat less than "petal to the metal" acceleration that is most pronounced on a 34 degree upslope between 2000-3100 RPM's.
- Status
