Rubbish advice on BITOG these days...

[ccap41]

Originally Posted By: PolarisX
If I don't have facts I always try to say "I find that...", "In my experience...", or "My opinion..."

But yes, it does seem like a lot of people here just bark out the same few "facts" over and over. I've even had to ignore a few users already because they are always negative or giving questionable advise.

I'm on the hot 'Get it out in the old oil' train of thought myself.

+1

 

[serversurfer]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
I'm not willing to trade engine wear for fuel economy. For example, a new pick up truck pushing $70k isn't getting 0W20 from me for a 2% fuel saving.
I believe that an engine that burns oil when new, will eventually end up with issues like sticking rings and worse fuel economy down the road.
My target is 20 years or 500K miles which ever comes first, without getting into the engine. In fact, I'm starting to think that light weight automatic transmission fluids
like Dexron VI may be good for fuel economy, but bad in the long run for longevity.

If it is true that most engine wear occurs during warm-up, then a heavier grade that still meets the cold start requirements will activate the engine oil's AW additives sooner,
because the oil warms up faster from fluid friction.

edit; I drain engine oil hot and have the burns to prove it.

Looking at a brand new F-350, a 2% MPG increase would save you about 700 gallons of fuel over those 500k, or about 35 gallons a year. That's nothing to sneeze* at. Just how much does using out-of-spec oil reduce your wear? How much Fe did you have with 0W20, and how much with 10W30 or whatever?

*Speaking of bad air, +35Gal/year means also means an extra 700 pounds of CO2 being introduced in to the atmosphere, every year, just from your single truck. How many extra trees do you plant when you switch to 30-weight?

 

[userfriendly]

Well, I have 2 chainsaws with 28 inch bars and post trophy kills on the FB PETA site.....

 

[serversurfer]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I could see where draining a diesel hot vs cold compared to a gas engine would make more of a difference due to the soot. Gas engines have way less suspended particulate and insolubles.

Well, if you want to look at things in relative terms… Then if a cold drain removes 90% of impurities from the system, and a hot drain removes 99% — butt-sourced, yes — would you concede that you're accumulating impurities at ten times the rate that those who do a "proper" change are? Why would we want to intentionally increase contaminants tenfold? Or double them, or increase them in any easily avoidable way? This fruit seems eminently pluckable…

The drawbacks of a cold drain seem fairly straightforward. Could you detail some of the advantages of a cold drain? A cold drain clearly leaves "more" impurities in the sump. What do you propose we're gaining in return for that sacrifice? Engineering is a series of tradeoffs. What is the specific trade you propose? "Sure, it increases wear, but…"

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So dig up at least one legitimate paper (SAE preferred) that prove that draining the oil cold causes more engine wear or any other detrimental effects compared to draining the oil hot.

The effect of temperature on solubility is fairly well understood, as is the effect of contaminants in lubrication. What would be the point of testing "both at once" like that? We already know contaminants will settle in the sump if the oil is allowed to cool, and we know contaminants cause wear. The studies have already been done…

 

[serversurfer]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Well, I have 2 chainsaws with 28 inch bars and post trophy kills on the FB PETA site.....

Well, if you're really intent on insuring your children have no place to live, then I suppose you're already on the right track!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: serversurfer
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I could see where draining a diesel hot vs cold compared to a gas engine would make more of a difference due to the soot. Gas engines have way less suspended particulate and insolubles.

Well, if you want to look at things in relative terms… Then if a cold drain removes 90% of impurities from the system, and a hot drain removes 99% — butt-sourced, yes — would you concede that you're accumulating impurities at ten times the rate that those who do a "proper" change are? Why would we want to intentionally increase contaminants tenfold? Or double them, or increase them in any easily avoidable way? This fruit seems eminently pluckable…

The drawbacks of a cold drain seem fairly straightforward. Could you detail some of the advantages of a cold drain? A cold drain clearly leaves "more" impurities in the sump. What do you propose we're gaining in return for that sacrifice? Engineering is a series of tradeoffs. What is the specific trade you propose? "Sure, it increases wear, but…"

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
So dig up at least one legitimate paper (SAE preferred) that prove that draining the oil cold causes more engine wear or any other detrimental effects compared to draining the oil hot.

The effect of temperature on solubility is fairly well understood, as is the effect of contaminants in lubrication. What would be the point of testing "both at once" like that? We already know contaminants will settle in the sump if the oil is allowed to cool, and we know contaminants cause wear. The studies have already been done…

There is absolutely ZERO SAE papers that even address the difference in engine wear or engine damage due to draining the sump hot vs cold. But there are dozens of not hundreds of SAE papers that say using a high efficiency oil filter will reduce engine wear. SAE guys know that the full full oil filter is the device used to keep the oil clean, not draining the sump hot vs cold.

Link to Related Discussion - Read from here forward

And BTW serversurfer, just in case you missed it, I'm not advocating everyone should drain there oil cold. What I'm saying is there is no proof it hurts anything ... zero documented proof, it's all conjecture - unlike proof that high efficiency oil filters do reduce engine wear. Using high efficiency oil filters will do way more for your engine than draining the oil hot.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
so if you think having debris in the sump is from draining the oil when cold then you're way off track.


Nope. I think IF you've got debris in your sump (and I'd think there will often be some) then draining it cold isn't the best way to get rid of it, which is where we came in.

Anyway, I don't especially want to attack your belief system. Do what you like.

Here's the original thread on this metal.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2976159/Deposit_on_Dipstick#Post2976159

My best guess is its from the cam lobes, which might have lost case-hardening, but of course I don't know.


Your engine is producing abnormal amounts of Fe particles as you've proven - maybe some non-Fe particulate too. They are large enough to probably fall to the bottom of the oil pan while the engine is running. In your case I highly doubt draining the oil hot or cold is going to change anything - especially since your oil pan isn't flat and smooth, and looks like there's a raised area inside the pan where the drain plug threads into, so heavy particles won't get past that point.



I don't know quite a lot of that. (and if I don't, I'd suggest you don't either). Specifically:

(a) I don't know this is abnormal. I've never noticed it on another car, but I might not have.

(b) I don't know the size distribution of these particles, though I have circumstantial evidence (not removed by oil filter, settle very slowly) that they are mostly relatively small. This gives some reassurance, since I understand that failure-inducing wear generally shifts the distribution towards larger particles.

Answering (b) would probably require access to a fairly good microscope and maybe a lab. I might be able to wangle that but probably not for this project. Such research would be unlikely to be publishable and the car is unpopular with the authorities, El Presidente Nuevo having personally expressed displeasure, (One of the reasons I'd like to keep the car going for as long as possible.)

I hit (mandatory?) retirement age this year and could stay on at the university as a part-time instructor (huge pay-rate cut) so I'd have some spare time for this kind of thing. However, I lose my office and dorm room so tool storage/car work might not be practical.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Years ago I experimented with cold and hot oil changes. Draining oil cold, there were always some 'debris' sitting in the oil pan after no more oil drained out, than if I drained the oil while it was hot, at full operating temperature. This was on my own strictly maintained vehicles, invariably with synthetic oil, and at conservative OCI's.

I verified the 'debris' sitting in the oil pan with a bore scope that has a very clear image.

When the oil was drained while at operating temperature, the oil pan would be essentially spotless when inspected with the bore scope.

Just some completely anecdotal evidence. But as a result of what I saw with my own experiment on my vehicles, and what I've seen in countless engines I have worked on, I always change my oil while it is hot.



Interesting info. Was this all on the same bike? ... meaning if you did a cold oil change and saw something in the oil pan, and then did the next oil change hot, did the debris you saw in the oil pan disappear?

How do we know that doing all those wheelies and high lean angle corners didn't sweep the debris out of the bottom of the oil pan to get it re-suspended so the oil filter caught it all?

My own cars and bikes. Yes, after going back to hot oil drains, it would clean up the goop after a few OCI's.

However, when I worked on consumer cars for a living, I also had cars come in that were sludged. Think goop throughout the engine. When I asked the customer what their oil change method was, it was either going too long on the OCI, or changing their own oil, and doing so by draining it cold.

The takeaway for me is that over time the accumulation of particles left behind by the cold drain oil change, leads to the formation of sludge that will not drain even with the oil at operating temperature. At that point, more drastic measures like removing valve covers and the oil pan, and going after the sludge with solvent and a brush became necessary to remove the sludge.

No, I didn't publish any SAE papers on my experience. But knowing what I've seen, I choose to always drain the oil in my vehicles while it's still at operating temperature.

People are free to take my experience to heart when considering their own Oil Change procedures, or discount it completely and do whatever they want. It makes no difference to me.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


There is absolutely ZERO SAE papers that even address the difference in engine wear or engine damage due to draining the sump hot vs cold.


I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it might be because it is difficult to get research into the Bleeding Obvious first funded and then published.

Unless you're a social scientist, of course.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Shouldn't make much difference at all whether a little junk gets left in the bottom of sump. More could stick to the sump cold though.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
so if you think having debris in the sump is from draining the oil when cold then you're way off track.


Nope. I think IF you've got debris in your sump (and I'd think there will often be some) then draining it cold isn't the best way to get rid of it, which is where we came in.

Anyway, I don't especially want to attack your belief system. Do what you like.

Here's the original thread on this metal.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2976159/Deposit_on_Dipstick#Post2976159

My best guess is its from the cam lobes, which might have lost case-hardening, but of course I don't know.


Your engine is producing abnormal amounts of Fe particles as you've proven - maybe some non-Fe particulate too. They are large enough to probably fall to the bottom of the oil pan while the engine is running. In your case I highly doubt draining the oil hot or cold is going to change anything - especially since your oil pan isn't flat and smooth, and looks like there's a raised area inside the pan where the drain plug threads into, so heavy particles won't get past that point.



I don't know quite a lot of that. (and if I don't, I'd suggest you don't either). Specifically:

(a) I don't know this is abnormal. I've never noticed it on another car, but I might not have.

(b) I don't know the size distribution of these particles, though I have circumstantial evidence (not removed by oil filter, settle very slowly) that they are mostly relatively small. This gives some reassurance, since I understand that failure-inducing wear generally shifts the distribution towards larger particles.

Answering (b) would probably require access to a fairly good microscope and maybe a lab. I might be able to wangle that but probably not for this project. Such research would be unlikely to be publishable and the car is unpopular with the authorities, El Presidente Nuevo having personally expressed displeasure, (One of the reasons I'd like to keep the car going for as long as possible.)

I hit (mandatory?) retirement age this year and could stay on at the university as a part-time instructor (huge pay-rate cut) so I'd have some spare time for this kind of thing. However, I lose my office and dorm room so tool storage/car work might not be practical.


That level of Fe production on an engine that's well broken in is not normal at all. I've seen way less metal particles in brand new engines after the first oil change.

Next time cut open the oil filter and that will tell you even more if the engine is eating itself alive.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


There is absolutely ZERO SAE papers that even address the difference in engine wear or engine damage due to draining the sump hot vs cold.


I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it might be because it is difficult to get research into the Bleeding Obvious first funded and then published.

Unless you're a social scientist, of course.


Well it's pretty bleeding obvious to most people that high efficiency oil filters reduce engine wear, yet there are literally hundreds of SAE papers about it. Yet there is not one paper found addressing the side effects of draining the engine sump when cold.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


There is absolutely ZERO SAE papers that even address the difference in engine wear or engine damage due to draining the sump hot vs cold.


I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it might be because it is difficult to get research into the Bleeding Obvious first funded and then published.

Unless you're a social scientist, of course.


Well it's pretty bleeding obvious to most people that high efficiency oil filters reduce engine wear, yet there are literally hundreds of SAE papers about it. Yet there is not one paper found addressing the side effects of draining the engine sump when cold.


Follow the money.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Years ago I experimented with cold and hot oil changes. Draining oil cold, there were always some 'debris' sitting in the oil pan after no more oil drained out, than if I drained the oil while it was hot, at full operating temperature. This was on my own strictly maintained vehicles, invariably with synthetic oil, and at conservative OCI's.

I verified the 'debris' sitting in the oil pan with a bore scope that has a very clear image.

When the oil was drained while at operating temperature, the oil pan would be essentially spotless when inspected with the bore scope.

Just some completely anecdotal evidence. But as a result of what I saw with my own experiment on my vehicles, and what I've seen in countless engines I have worked on, I always change my oil while it is hot.



Interesting info. Was this all on the same bike? ... meaning if you did a cold oil change and saw something in the oil pan, and then did the next oil change hot, did the debris you saw in the oil pan disappear?

How do we know that doing all those wheelies and high lean angle corners didn't sweep the debris out of the bottom of the oil pan to get it re-suspended so the oil filter caught it all?

My own cars and bikes. Yes, after going back to hot oil drains, it would clean up the goop after a few OCI's.

However, when I worked on consumer cars for a living, I also had cars come in that were sludged. Think goop throughout the engine. When I asked the customer what their oil change method was, it was either going too long on the OCI, or changing their own oil, and doing so by draining it cold.

The takeaway for me is that over time the accumulation of particles left behind by the cold drain oil change, leads to the formation of sludge that will not drain even with the oil at operating temperature. At that point, more drastic measures like removing valve covers and the oil pan, and going after the sludge with solvent and a brush became necessary to remove the sludge.

No, I didn't publish any SAE papers on my experience. But knowing what I've seen, I choose to always drain the oil in my vehicles while it's still at operating temperature.

People are free to take my experience to heart when considering their own Oil Change procedures, or discount it completely and do whatever they want. It makes no difference to me.

Appreciate your comments, but I'd say it's a stretch to say the cause of a sludged up engine was from draining the oil cold. But once sludged up, then I agree draining the sump cold isn't helping at all, and draining as hot as possible would help more.

Obviously draining hot/warm is a better practice than draining cold, but I've seen zero proof that it causes any major issues if the engine is maintained properly and kept clean. Sludge is primary caused by extending the oil change way beyond what it should be. If this was a big deal there would be at least a paper or two from the SAE about it. I can't find any official test results of any kind addressing draining oil hot vs cold, but maybe someone else can.

 

[PimTac]

"Well it's pretty bleeding obvious to most people that high efficiency oil filters reduce engine wear, yet there are literally hundreds of SAE papers about it. Yet there is not one paper found addressing the side effects of draining the engine sump when cold."

Hmmm, this is interesting. I wonder what the percentage gains are?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix


There is absolutely ZERO SAE papers that even address the difference in engine wear or engine damage due to draining the sump hot vs cold.


I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it might be because it is difficult to get research into the Bleeding Obvious first funded and then published.


thankyou...

same as trying to find pumpability studies at 40C, when all of the papers are at the limits of pumpability, because that's where the problem is...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Come on Shannow ... your "Mr. SAE Paper" guy. You really think if draining the sump cold was a big issue that there wouldn't be an SAE paper about it, or at least some half way official white paper. SAE papers are your primary back-up tool of proof for your arguments ... until there isn't one to be found.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Your engine is producing abnormal amounts of Fe particles...

I don't know this is abnormal. I've never noticed it on another car, but I might not have.


To add ... did you ever start using a good quality oil that the engine manufacturer specifies instead of an oil that may not be proper for that engine (based on the info in your other thread on your particulate issue)?

If so, any difference seen?

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Years ago I experimented with cold and hot oil changes. Draining oil cold, there were always some 'debris' sitting in the oil pan after no more oil drained out, than if I drained the oil while it was hot, at full operating temperature. This was on my own strictly maintained vehicles, invariably with synthetic oil, and at conservative OCI's.

I verified the 'debris' sitting in the oil pan with a bore scope that has a very clear image.

When the oil was drained while at operating temperature, the oil pan would be essentially spotless when inspected with the bore scope.

Just some completely anecdotal evidence. But as a result of what I saw with my own experiment on my vehicles, and what I've seen in countless engines I have worked on, I always change my oil while it is hot.



Interesting info. Was this all on the same bike? ... meaning if you did a cold oil change and saw something in the oil pan, and then did the next oil change hot, did the debris you saw in the oil pan disappear?

How do we know that doing all those wheelies and high lean angle corners didn't sweep the debris out of the bottom of the oil pan to get it re-suspended so the oil filter caught it all?

My own cars and bikes. Yes, after going back to hot oil drains, it would clean up the goop after a few OCI's.

However, when I worked on consumer cars for a living, I also had cars come in that were sludged. Think goop throughout the engine. When I asked the customer what their oil change method was, it was either going too long on the OCI, or changing their own oil, and doing so by draining it cold.

The takeaway for me is that over time the accumulation of particles left behind by the cold drain oil change, leads to the formation of sludge that will not drain even with the oil at operating temperature. At that point, more drastic measures like removing valve covers and the oil pan, and going after the sludge with solvent and a brush became necessary to remove the sludge.

No, I didn't publish any SAE papers on my experience. But knowing what I've seen, I choose to always drain the oil in my vehicles while it's still at operating temperature.

People are free to take my experience to heart when considering their own Oil Change procedures, or discount it completely and do whatever they want. It makes no difference to me.

Appreciate your comments, but I'd say it's a stretch to say the cause of a sludged up engine was from draining the oil cold. But once sludged up, then I agree draining the sump cold isn't helping at all, and draining as hot as possible would help more.

Obviously draining hot/warm is a better practice than draining cold, but I've seen zero proof that it causes any major issues if the engine is maintained properly and kept clean. Sludge is primary caused by extending the oil change way beyond what it should be. If this was a big deal there would be at least a paper or two from the SAE about it. I can't find any official test results of any kind addressing draining oil hot vs cold, but maybe someone else can.


I usually don't reply with anything terribly substantive on here, because I don't feel like typing endlessly while debating a subject. But I'll reply since we have an on-line history.

In the scenario I mentioned wherein the customers engines were sludged, the OCI's weren't extended, the PCV system was operational, the only factor which seemed to be causal, were the repeated build-up of contaminates on internal engine surfaces, from repeated cold drains. After cleaning the sludge through the more drastic measures I mentioned, and then having the owners institute a hot drain oil change regimen, and despite the owners using the same oil they always had, the sludge build-up never returned over a several year period.

I haven't looked for an SAE Paper that could confirm my own observations, and I have no intention of doing so. I'm just telling you what I experienced, with a handful of customer cars. And of course my little experiment on my own vehicles.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix

Well it's pretty bleeding obvious to most people that high efficiency oil filters reduce engine wear, yet there are literally hundreds of SAE papers about it. Yet there is not one paper found addressing the side effects of draining the engine sump when cold.
Toyota specs some inefficient filters. Using the "nothing blew up" thinking high efficiency filters are equal to low efficiency filters.

Clearly in the overall picture filter efficiency above a minimum level isn't that big of a deal. On a properly maintained modern car with quality oil the hot vs cold oil change likely isn't going to be a big deal either.