CK-4 and FA-4 have enough users in a bunch right now. The motorcycle types are having trouble thinking through Rotella's changes ... The Delo fan boys are nervous. There is plenty action, just not in the car crowd
Rubbish advice on BITOG these days...
- Thread starter Shannow
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Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Nothing wrong with draining the oil when it's cold (say ambient temp is 50 deg F or above). It all drained back to the oil pan while hot, so you're basically just draining the oil pan volume. Just let it drain longer until it stops dripping. Same result in the end.
If you've got stuff settling out of your oil you want to get the oil out before it does it. Once its on the bottom of the sump it's likely to stay there unless you take the sump off, which is a pain on many cars.
For example, I have (or had, havn't checked lately) fine ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and before I took the sump off (which was a pain) I had gasket fragments and flakes of varnish in there too. Sump design is bad on that car, since the plug is held by an internal castellated nut which acts as a strainer, but the basic principle will likely apply to anything.
Nothing wrong with draining the oil when it's cold (say ambient temp is 50 deg F or above). It all drained back to the oil pan while hot, so you're basically just draining the oil pan volume. Just let it drain longer until it stops dripping. Same result in the end.
If you've got stuff settling out of your oil you want to get the oil out before it does it. Once its on the bottom of the sump it's likely to stay there unless you take the sump off, which is a pain on many cars.
For example, I have (or had, havn't checked lately) fine ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and before I took the sump off (which was a pain) I had gasket fragments and flakes of varnish in there too. Sump design is bad on that car, since the plug is held by an internal castellated nut which acts as a strainer, but the basic principle will likely apply to anything.
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Nothing wrong with draining the oil when it's cold (say ambient temp is 50 deg F or above). It all drained back to the oil pan while hot, so you're basically just draining the oil pan volume. Just let it drain longer until it stops dripping. Same result in the end.
If you've got stuff settling out of your oil you want to get the oil out before it does it. Once its on the bottom of the sump it's likely to stay there unless you take the sump off, which is a pain on many cars.
For example, I have (or had, havn't checked lately) fine ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and before I took the sump off (which was a pain) I had gasket fragments and flakes of varnish in there too. Sump design is bad on that car, since the plug is held by an internal castellated nut which acts as a strainer, but the basic principle will likely apply to anything.
If you have stuff in your oil that is heavy enough to settle at the bottom of the sump after the engine is shut off, then it's settling every time the engine is shut off. Or even settling in the sump while the engine is running if it's heavy enough to not stay suspended in the oil and caught by the oil filter. It's all the repeated shutdowns that eventually accumulates any heavy non-suspended crud at the bottom of the sump.
If it doesn't get mixed up and suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it's going to lay at the bottom of the sump no matter what. And if it does get suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it should get caught in the oil filter anyway.
So it really doesn't matter if the oil is drained hot or cold. Doing it hot isn't going to remove any accumulated settled crud any better than draining it cold.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Nothing wrong with draining the oil when it's cold (say ambient temp is 50 deg F or above). It all drained back to the oil pan while hot, so you're basically just draining the oil pan volume. Just let it drain longer until it stops dripping. Same result in the end.
If you've got stuff settling out of your oil you want to get the oil out before it does it. Once its on the bottom of the sump it's likely to stay there unless you take the sump off, which is a pain on many cars.
For example, I have (or had, havn't checked lately) fine ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and before I took the sump off (which was a pain) I had gasket fragments and flakes of varnish in there too. Sump design is bad on that car, since the plug is held by an internal castellated nut which acts as a strainer, but the basic principle will likely apply to anything.
If you have stuff in your oil that is heavy enough to settle at the bottom of the sump after the engine is shut off, then it's settling every time the engine is shut off. Or even settling in the sump while the engine is running if it's heavy enough to not stay suspended in the oil and caught by the oil filter. It's all the repeated shutdowns that eventually accumulates any heavy non-suspended crud at the bottom of the sump.
If it doesn't get mixed up and suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it's going to lay at the bottom of the sump no matter what. And if it does get suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it should get caught in the oil filter anyway.
So it really doesn't matter if the oil is drained hot or cold. Doing it hot isn't going to remove any accumulated settled crud any better than draining it cold.
Put garbage additives like STP (or Lucas) into your crankcase to thicken oil that you don't even know is burning...
Incidentally, I have no problem with STP in appropriate applications like when you have a beater burner thicken otherwise clean oil in it...
Incidentally, I have no problem with STP in appropriate applications like when you have a beater burner thicken otherwise clean oil in it...
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Or at least blanket statements offering clearly sub-optimal advice.
Started with the "of course 0W and 0W allways equals 0W"...entirely absent of facts and proof, just posits. Of course, two SN oils will be SN oils when mixed too.
Recently...there's never been any evidence of problems in mixing, ever. Well except for the ones that are demonstrated, but that's not proof of anything.
Latest one is contaminant solubility is the same regardless of oil temperature...
What is it for ?
Is it to make your own personal preference more justifiable to yourself ?
Drain your oil cold, don't state that it achieves the exact same outcome to newbies just because it helps perpetuate what your personal preference for comfort.
Mix to your heart's content, but don't state to newbies that there will never be an issue just because it placates that little voice in the back of your mind that suggests that you shouldn't be doing it.
You talkin to me ...
Cold changes cause I can, and I don't like getting burned. Mix, cause I can and have been involved with oil mixes since the 1960's. Never seen a bad result. But if you have one - point me there ...
Solubility, please ... If the engine is so bad that you need to be concerned with soluble contaminates coming out of suspension, that motor has other issues that need to be addressed. If you drop the pan on ANY of my over 200,000 mile gas motors and you can't see the steel, I'll buy you a $100 lunch at the restaurant of your choice here in the Napa Valley ...
If folks don't take care of their stuff, it ain't my problem. If they have sludged motors, they need KREEN, or at least BG109, oversized filters and more frequent changes ...
For the average BITOGER, oil is some sort of obsession bordering on OCD. You tell me that an engine running Delo 400 15W-40 and is down a gallon (out of 10) is going to get upset if I toss in a gallon of Delvac ...
I'm on the road and I need top-up oil. I don't carry gallons of the stuff. That's what Truck Stops are for, or Napa Auto Parts, etc. Top-up is almost always a mix - so what ...
And to all of you who claim to "know" what is what - how many of you'all have actually torn down and rebuilt engines? I've done marine, trucking, and automotive and been involved in crewed race cars in engine prep. So no, I don't have Gena's lab behind me, but I have been wrenching on engines since my first car (as a learning toy) was bought for me by my folks when I was 10. That was before 1960. And I been at it till today. What you got?
This perfectly illustrates Shannow's point. Some guy who knows just because he "knows" arguing with a guy who is educated, trained and experienced in designing bearings. How many threads have we had about the stupid oil advice heard from mechanics?
But I'm sure this guy is different.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Or at least blanket statements offering clearly sub-optimal advice.
Started with the "of course 0W and 0W allways equals 0W"...entirely absent of facts and proof, just posits. Of course, two SN oils will be SN oils when mixed too.
Recently...there's never been any evidence of problems in mixing, ever. Well except for the ones that are demonstrated, but that's not proof of anything.
Latest one is contaminant solubility is the same regardless of oil temperature...
What is it for ?
Is it to make your own personal preference more justifiable to yourself ?
Drain your oil cold, don't state that it achieves the exact same outcome to newbies just because it helps perpetuate what your personal preference for comfort.
Mix to your heart's content, but don't state to newbies that there will never be an issue just because it placates that little voice in the back of your mind that suggests that you shouldn't be doing it.
You talkin to me ...
Cold changes cause I can, and I don't like getting burned. Mix, cause I can and have been involved with oil mixes since the 1960's. Never seen a bad result. But if you have one - point me there ...
Solubility, please ... If the engine is so bad that you need to be concerned with soluble contaminates coming out of suspension, that motor has other issues that need to be addressed. If you drop the pan on ANY of my over 200,000 mile gas motors and you can't see the steel, I'll buy you a $100 lunch at the restaurant of your choice here in the Napa Valley ...
If folks don't take care of their stuff, it ain't my problem. If they have sludged motors, they need KREEN, or at least BG109, oversized filters and more frequent changes ...
For the average BITOGER, oil is some sort of obsession bordering on OCD. You tell me that an engine running Delo 400 15W-40 and is down a gallon (out of 10) is going to get upset if I toss in a gallon of Delvac ...
I'm on the road and I need top-up oil. I don't carry gallons of the stuff. That's what Truck Stops are for, or Napa Auto Parts, etc. Top-up is almost always a mix - so what ...
And to all of you who claim to "know" what is what - how many of you'all have actually torn down and rebuilt engines? I've done marine, trucking, and automotive and been involved in crewed race cars in engine prep. So no, I don't have Gena's lab behind me, but I have been wrenching on engines since my first car (as a learning toy) was bought for me by my folks when I was 10. That was before 1960. And I been at it till today. What you got?
This perfectly illustrates Shannow's point. Some guy who knows just because he "knows" arguing with a guy who is educated, trained and experienced in designing bearings. How many threads have we had about the stupid oil advice heard from mechanics?
But I'm sure this guy is different.
Look, we gotta talk about something... We all bring experience to the table. Shannows knowledge is good, but it ain't necessarily engines (except I know he has some ...).
I didn't design bearings (turbine), I bought or spec'd them. I didn't design oil pumps or filter systems, I bought or spec'd them. So what? The issue was to solve a problem at hand. How many lubrication problems you ever solve ...
I didn't design bearings (turbine), I bought or spec'd them. I didn't design oil pumps or filter systems, I bought or spec'd them. So what? The issue was to solve a problem at hand. How many lubrication problems you ever solve ...
You bought some parts? Thats great, but it puts you in same category as dnewton and CATERHAM; your ONLY qualification is you're willing to be the loudest guy in the room. The guy who designed the parts you bought could probably tell us something, but you'd probably just argue with him too.
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The statements made were that there are "NEVER" going to be problems, and "NO-ONE HAS EVER" shown that there can be problems.
Show that there HAVE, and CAN be, subjects of SAE investigations and paper and they are immediately dismissed as not applicable to the discussion, because no-one has ever PERSONALLY experienced a problem, and therefore is competent to discuss it.
Show that there HAVE, and CAN be, subjects of SAE investigations and paper and they are immediately dismissed as not applicable to the discussion, because no-one has ever PERSONALLY experienced a problem, and therefore is competent to discuss it.
Shurly by now you have seen all the "cherry picked" links to "other people's work".
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Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
You bought some parts? Thats great, but it puts you in same category as dnewton and CATERHAM; your ONLY qualification is you're willing to be the loudest guy in the room. The guy who designed the parts you bought could probably tell us something, but you'd probably just argue with him too.
Excuse me ... I bought or spec'd some parts in ships systems related to lubrication deficiencies and premature wear. Same in small boats (under 65 feet).
I've had to re-configure bearing case feeds and filter systems in 1,000 HP Jet Boats that required consultation with the supplying engineers/firms.
You never just buy some parts in systems that big. Sure the design engineer can tell you something. They can also look at your analysis and suggest that their products will/will-not be an improvement.
I have not been a line mechanic since about 1974. So I dunno where you get me being the "loudest person in the room" or only relying on personal experience ... But relying on a history with internal combustion engines that goes almost 60 years now in marine, ag, motorcycles, over the road trucking and drag racing makes me who I am. I'll always suggest what I know works. Maybe I just need to "splain" things more clearly ...
And my question remains - what have you done to solve lube issues or motor failures? What's your background ...
You bought some parts? Thats great, but it puts you in same category as dnewton and CATERHAM; your ONLY qualification is you're willing to be the loudest guy in the room. The guy who designed the parts you bought could probably tell us something, but you'd probably just argue with him too.
Excuse me ... I bought or spec'd some parts in ships systems related to lubrication deficiencies and premature wear. Same in small boats (under 65 feet).
I've had to re-configure bearing case feeds and filter systems in 1,000 HP Jet Boats that required consultation with the supplying engineers/firms.
You never just buy some parts in systems that big. Sure the design engineer can tell you something. They can also look at your analysis and suggest that their products will/will-not be an improvement.
I have not been a line mechanic since about 1974. So I dunno where you get me being the "loudest person in the room" or only relying on personal experience ... But relying on a history with internal combustion engines that goes almost 60 years now in marine, ag, motorcycles, over the road trucking and drag racing makes me who I am. I'll always suggest what I know works. Maybe I just need to "splain" things more clearly ...
And my question remains - what have you done to solve lube issues or motor failures? What's your background ...
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Nothing wrong with draining the oil when it's cold (say ambient temp is 50 deg F or above). It all drained back to the oil pan while hot, so you're basically just draining the oil pan volume. Just let it drain longer until it stops dripping. Same result in the end.
If you've got stuff settling out of your oil you want to get the oil out before it does it. Once its on the bottom of the sump it's likely to stay there unless you take the sump off, which is a pain on many cars.
For example, I have (or had, havn't checked lately) fine ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and before I took the sump off (which was a pain) I had gasket fragments and flakes of varnish in there too. Sump design is bad on that car, since the plug is held by an internal castellated nut which acts as a strainer, but the basic principle will likely apply to anything.
If you have stuff in your oil that is heavy enough to settle at the bottom of the sump after the engine is shut off, then it's settling every time the engine is shut off. Or even settling in the sump while the engine is running if it's heavy enough to not stay suspended in the oil and caught by the oil filter. It's all the repeated shutdowns that eventually accumulates any heavy non-suspended crud at the bottom of the sump.
If it doesn't get mixed up and suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it's going to lay at the bottom of the sump no matter what. And if it does get suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it should get caught in the oil filter anyway.
So it really doesn't matter if the oil is drained hot or cold. Doing it hot isn't going to remove any accumulated settled crud any better than draining it cold.
Like the conviction with which your theory is delivered, and your touching faith in standard oil filters.
Perhaps I'd like it even better if it wasn't my car and if I didn't happen to know that it isn't true.
I first noticed this metal as a deposit on the dipstick after a long stand. If it was removed by the oil filter, it would have presumably gone away.
It didn't.
So it wasn't.
After a few oil and filter changes (metal in the oil) and a couple of swabbings-out of the sump (metal in the sump sludge) the level seemed to go down quite a lot, but I never implemented any scheme for quantifying it.
I don't know what the current status is.
This is ferrous metal, so of course solubility isn't a factor. I didn't see the original thread this part of the discussion derives from, but it seems very likely that organics like varnish precursors are going to be more soluble in hot oil. Most things are.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Nothing wrong with draining the oil when it's cold (say ambient temp is 50 deg F or above). It all drained back to the oil pan while hot, so you're basically just draining the oil pan volume. Just let it drain longer until it stops dripping. Same result in the end.
If you've got stuff settling out of your oil you want to get the oil out before it does it. Once its on the bottom of the sump it's likely to stay there unless you take the sump off, which is a pain on many cars.
For example, I have (or had, havn't checked lately) fine ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and before I took the sump off (which was a pain) I had gasket fragments and flakes of varnish in there too. Sump design is bad on that car, since the plug is held by an internal castellated nut which acts as a strainer, but the basic principle will likely apply to anything.
If you have stuff in your oil that is heavy enough to settle at the bottom of the sump after the engine is shut off, then it's settling every time the engine is shut off. Or even settling in the sump while the engine is running if it's heavy enough to not stay suspended in the oil and caught by the oil filter. It's all the repeated shutdowns that eventually accumulates any heavy non-suspended crud at the bottom of the sump.
If it doesn't get mixed up and suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it's going to lay at the bottom of the sump no matter what. And if it does get suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it should get caught in the oil filter anyway.
So it really doesn't matter if the oil is drained hot or cold. Doing it hot isn't going to remove any accumulated settled crud any better than draining it cold.
Like the conviction with which your theory is delivered, and your touching faith in standard oil filters.
Perhaps I'd like it even better if it wasn't my car and if I didn't happen to know that it isn't true.
I first noticed this metal as a deposit on the dipstick after a long stand. If it was removed by the oil filter, it would have presumably gone away.
It didn't.
So it wasn't.
After a few oil and filter changes (metal in the oil) and a couple of swabbings-out of the sump (metal in the sump sludge) the level seemed to go down quite a lot, but I never implemented any scheme for quantifying it.
I don't know what the current status is.
This is ferrous metal, so of course solubility isn't a factor. I didn't see the original thread this part of the discussion derives from, but it seems very likely that organics like varnish precursors are going to be more soluble in hot oil. Most things are.
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If you have Fe metals in the sump, you need to trap them somehow. They are to heavy to come up off the floor of the pan with just a gravity drain of any sort (hot or cold). The usual approach for race motors, which can shed Fe metals quite quickly, is to epoxy a plate magnet on the outside of the pan bottom. The field will go through the sheet metal and the particles will adhere to the pan bottom. Also use a magnetic drain plug so have an indicator as to how much Fe metal is being produced...
Yes, Fe particles may be to heavy to be picked up by the oil pump pick-up depending on the clearance with the bottom of the pan ... The problem will come if you get into side-hilling and or off-roading when the motor is in unusual attitudes and the crank can actually spin in liquid oil. It will agitate all that enough to toss the Fe bits into circulation and they will likely be embed in the piston skirts. Bad ju-ju for the cylinder walls.
It's a good thing they did not go through the oil pump to the filter in the first place. Those bits can wreak havoc on oil pump gears, and if big enough, can stop the pump, which will break the pump drive at a minimum ... Be glad you missed that so far
Yes, Fe particles may be to heavy to be picked up by the oil pump pick-up depending on the clearance with the bottom of the pan ... The problem will come if you get into side-hilling and or off-roading when the motor is in unusual attitudes and the crank can actually spin in liquid oil. It will agitate all that enough to toss the Fe bits into circulation and they will likely be embed in the piston skirts. Bad ju-ju for the cylinder walls.
It's a good thing they did not go through the oil pump to the filter in the first place. Those bits can wreak havoc on oil pump gears, and if big enough, can stop the pump, which will break the pump drive at a minimum ... Be glad you missed that so far
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Nothing wrong with draining the oil when it's cold (say ambient temp is 50 deg F or above). It all drained back to the oil pan while hot, so you're basically just draining the oil pan volume. Just let it drain longer until it stops dripping. Same result in the end.
If you've got stuff settling out of your oil you want to get the oil out before it does it. Once its on the bottom of the sump it's likely to stay there unless you take the sump off, which is a pain on many cars.
For example, I have (or had, havn't checked lately) fine ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and before I took the sump off (which was a pain) I had gasket fragments and flakes of varnish in there too. Sump design is bad on that car, since the plug is held by an internal castellated nut which acts as a strainer, but the basic principle will likely apply to anything.
If you have stuff in your oil that is heavy enough to settle at the bottom of the sump after the engine is shut off, then it's settling every time the engine is shut off. Or even settling in the sump while the engine is running if it's heavy enough to not stay suspended in the oil and caught by the oil filter. It's all the repeated shutdowns that eventually accumulates any heavy non-suspended crud at the bottom of the sump.
If it doesn't get mixed up and suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it's going to lay at the bottom of the sump no matter what. And if it does get suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it should get caught in the oil filter anyway.
So it really doesn't matter if the oil is drained hot or cold. Doing it hot isn't going to remove any accumulated settled crud any better than draining it cold.
Like the conviction with which your theory is delivered, and your touching faith in standard oil filters.
Perhaps I'd like it even better if it wasn't my car and if I didn't happen to know that it isn't true.
I first noticed this metal as a deposit on the dipstick after a long stand. If it was removed by the oil filter, it would have presumably gone away.
It didn't.
So it wasn't.
After a few oil and filter changes (metal in the oil) and a couple of swabbings-out of the sump (metal in the sump sludge) the level seemed to go down quite a lot, but I never implemented any scheme for quantifying it.
I don't know what the current status is.
This is ferrous metal, so of course solubility isn't a factor. I didn't see the original thread this part of the discussion derives from, but it seems very likely that organics like varnish precursors are going to be more soluble in hot oil. Most things are.
If particles are suspended in the oil while the engine is running then an efficient full flow oil filter is going to remove basically all of those particles unless they are smaller than ~10 microns.
Your engine seems to have some major issues going on with wear and/or debris generation. As said earlier, the heavy particles you're seeing in the bottom of the oil pan fall there ever time you run the engine and shut it off. If too heavy, they do not become re-suspended in the oil with the next start-up and drive, therefore the oil filter will never catch them. As time goes on, the accumulation increases as long as the source of the large particles exist.
And since you seem like you probably always drain your oil hot, it just goes to show that draining hot doesn't keep the sump clean if there are heavy particles that accumulate at the bottom of the sump every time the engine is ran and shut-off.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Nothing wrong with draining the oil when it's cold (say ambient temp is 50 deg F or above). It all drained back to the oil pan while hot, so you're basically just draining the oil pan volume. Just let it drain longer until it stops dripping. Same result in the end.
If you've got stuff settling out of your oil you want to get the oil out before it does it. Once its on the bottom of the sump it's likely to stay there unless you take the sump off, which is a pain on many cars.
For example, I have (or had, havn't checked lately) fine ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and before I took the sump off (which was a pain) I had gasket fragments and flakes of varnish in there too. Sump design is bad on that car, since the plug is held by an internal castellated nut which acts as a strainer, but the basic principle will likely apply to anything.
If you have stuff in your oil that is heavy enough to settle at the bottom of the sump after the engine is shut off, then it's settling every time the engine is shut off. Or even settling in the sump while the engine is running if it's heavy enough to not stay suspended in the oil and caught by the oil filter. It's all the repeated shutdowns that eventually accumulates any heavy non-suspended crud at the bottom of the sump.
If it doesn't get mixed up and suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it's going to lay at the bottom of the sump no matter what. And if it does get suspended in the oil the next time the engine is ran, then it should get caught in the oil filter anyway.
So it really doesn't matter if the oil is drained hot or cold. Doing it hot isn't going to remove any accumulated settled crud any better than draining it cold.
Like the conviction with which your theory is delivered, and your touching faith in standard oil filters.
Perhaps I'd like it even better if it wasn't my car and if I didn't happen to know that it isn't true.
I first noticed this metal as a deposit on the dipstick after a long stand. If it was removed by the oil filter, it would have presumably gone away.
It didn't.
So it wasn't.
After a few oil and filter changes (metal in the oil) and a couple of swabbings-out of the sump (metal in the sump sludge) the level seemed to go down quite a lot, but I never implemented any scheme for quantifying it.
I don't know what the current status is.
This is ferrous metal, so of course solubility isn't a factor. I didn't see the original thread this part of the discussion derives from, but it seems very likely that organics like varnish precursors are going to be more soluble in hot oil. Most things are.
If particles are suspended in the oil while the engine is running then an efficient full flow oil filter is going to remove basically all of those particles unless they are smaller than ~10 microns.
Your engine seems to have some major issues going on with wear and/or debris generation. As said earlier, the heavy particles you're seeing in the bottom of the oil pan fall there ever time you run the engine and shut it off. If too heavy, they do not become re-suspended in the oil with the next start-up and drive, therefore the oil filter will never catch them. As time goes on, the accumulation increases as long as the source of the large particles exist.
And since you seem like you probably always drain your oil hot, it just goes to show that draining hot doesn't keep the sump clean if there are heavy particles that accumulate at the bottom of the sump every time the engine is ran and shut-off.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If particles are suspended in the oil while the engine is running then an efficient full flow oil filter is going to remove basically all of those particles unless they are smaller than ~10 microns.
Filter capture limits are normally given as about 20 microns. I've been using ACDelco filters. I don't know the perfomance specs but I doubt they are anything special.
I don't know how big this stuff is/was but it settled out very slowly which implies it was pretty small. It appeared on the upper surface of the dipstick (which goes in at an angle) which implies it was going into suspension in the running engine and not getting trapped by the filter.
Some of it appeared in the hot-drained oil which confirms that...er...some of it appeared in the hot drained oil and didn't settle on the bottom of the sump. I'd be interested in any alternative interpretation of that observation, though I'd think you'd find that a bit challenging.
Some of it was in the sludge at the bottom of the sump when removed. This could have been a heavier fraction, or it could just have been closer to the sump bottom when the engine was shut off. Probably a bit of both.
It would have been an interesting punk technology exercise to characterise this stuff further, but I just didn't have the time. Perhaps a post-retiral project, but most of the evidence is gone.
If particles are suspended in the oil while the engine is running then an efficient full flow oil filter is going to remove basically all of those particles unless they are smaller than ~10 microns.
Filter capture limits are normally given as about 20 microns. I've been using ACDelco filters. I don't know the perfomance specs but I doubt they are anything special.
I don't know how big this stuff is/was but it settled out very slowly which implies it was pretty small. It appeared on the upper surface of the dipstick (which goes in at an angle) which implies it was going into suspension in the running engine and not getting trapped by the filter.
Some of it appeared in the hot-drained oil which confirms that...er...some of it appeared in the hot drained oil and didn't settle on the bottom of the sump. I'd be interested in any alternative interpretation of that observation, though I'd think you'd find that a bit challenging.
Some of it was in the sludge at the bottom of the sump when removed. This could have been a heavier fraction, or it could just have been closer to the sump bottom when the engine was shut off. Probably a bit of both.
It would have been an interesting punk technology exercise to characterise this stuff further, but I just didn't have the time. Perhaps a post-retiral project, but most of the evidence is gone.
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If particles are suspended in the oil while the engine is running then an efficient full flow oil filter is going to remove basically all of those particles unless they are smaller than ~10 microns.
Filter capture limits are normally given as about 20 microns. I've been using ACDelco filters. I don't know the perfomance specs but I doubt they are anything special.
I see you in the oil filter forum quite often, so you should know that if an oil filter is 99% efficient at 20 microns that it's also about 80% efficient at 5 microns. A filter like that is basically going to take out everything that is suspended in the oil when the oil goes through the filter.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I don't know how big this stuff is/was but it settled out very slowly which implies it was pretty small. It appeared on the upper surface of the dipstick (which goes in at an angle) which implies it was going into suspension in the running engine and not getting trapped by the filter.
Some of it appeared in the hot-drained oil which confirms that...er...some of it appeared in the hot drained oil and didn't settle on the bottom of the sump. I'd be interested in any alternative interpretation of that observation, though I'd think you'd find that a bit challenging.
Some of it was in the sludge at the bottom of the sump when removed. This could have been a heavier fraction, or it could just have been closer to the sump bottom when the engine was shut off. Probably a bit of both.
Obviously if there is a sludge like debris accumulated in the bottom of the oil pan then this engine hasn't been maintained very well. It's pretty simple, stuff either is in suspension as the engine is running and gets trapped in the oil filter, or it falls to the bottom of the sump and stays there. Draining the oil hot isn't going to remove large amounts of built up debris in the sump any better than draining it cold.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
If particles are suspended in the oil while the engine is running then an efficient full flow oil filter is going to remove basically all of those particles unless they are smaller than ~10 microns.
Filter capture limits are normally given as about 20 microns. I've been using ACDelco filters. I don't know the perfomance specs but I doubt they are anything special.
I see you in the oil filter forum quite often, so you should know that if an oil filter is 99% efficient at 20 microns that it's also about 80% efficient at 5 microns. A filter like that is basically going to take out everything that is suspended in the oil when the oil goes through the filter.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I don't know how big this stuff is/was but it settled out very slowly which implies it was pretty small. It appeared on the upper surface of the dipstick (which goes in at an angle) which implies it was going into suspension in the running engine and not getting trapped by the filter.
Some of it appeared in the hot-drained oil which confirms that...er...some of it appeared in the hot drained oil and didn't settle on the bottom of the sump. I'd be interested in any alternative interpretation of that observation, though I'd think you'd find that a bit challenging.
Some of it was in the sludge at the bottom of the sump when removed. This could have been a heavier fraction, or it could just have been closer to the sump bottom when the engine was shut off. Probably a bit of both.
Obviously if there is a sludge like debris accumulated in the bottom of the oil pan then this engine hasn't been maintained very well. It's pretty simple, stuff either is in suspension as the engine is running and gets trapped in the oil filter, or it falls to the bottom of the sump and stays there. Draining the oil hot isn't going to remove large amounts of built up debris in the sump any better than draining it cold.
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