Rubbish advice on BITOG these days...

[SirTanon]

This is why I take most of what I read on here with a grain of salt. While there is a lot of good information, there are a relatively low number of posters on here whose posted information I will take as reliable fact.

Not going to name names, but most of them work directly in the automotive field, or a directly related field, like chemistry, tires, tribology, etc.. i.e. - experts.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: ebr1190rx
Mixing has worked for me and cats. Vacuum tubes are better than sand also.


Have fun making a microprocessor out of 1,000,000,000+ vacuum tubes...
;^)

 

[53' Stude]

I mainly listen to bbhero, Molakule, LS1mike and Trav, and countless others. KCJEEP, GARAK and BrocLuno, and others with real world experience I listen to. All others bring data and facts as DNewton is good at data and real world info

 

[fdcg27]

There is best practice and there is what some seem to think works by the standard that they didn't see an outright failure.
There are good reasons not to blend oils, not the least of which being that you have no idea what viscosity or quality specs the blend will meet.
You've shown this time and again.
Bubba still chimes in with his having blended oils for years and having never yet lost an engine.
Many seem fixated on the standard of lack of catastrophic failure as the proof of performance.

 

[meborder]

My problem isn't people with opinions, it is with people presenting opinions as facts when they don't have a firm grasp on how things really work.

That's what makes this forum so laborious.

Too many people offer advise based on a poor understanding of the fundamentals that make things work the way they work. For me, less of a problem, but for others trying to learn and understand, it is hard for them to know to whom they should listen.

If people would either qualify their statements as an uneducated opinion, or simply sit back and learn from those who actually do know (of whom there are precious few) this site would be 10 times more useful.

As it is there are just a bunch of "me too's" running around either pretending to know, or nor knowing that they don't. The latter I find much more prevalent and far more dangerous, because the advice becomes more genuine in nature and thus more convincing.

JMHO

 

[Shannow]

Thanks gents for the last two posts...you get it.

 

[JHZR2]

Links? At least a few of these are so obvious that they should be removed immediately.

Unfortunately disclosure in threads doesn't draw attention the way a moderator notification does... just makes for drama.

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Or at least blanket statements offering clearly sub-optimal advice.

Started with the "of course 0W and 0W allways equals 0W"...entirely absent of facts and proof, just posits. Of course, two SN oils will be SN oils when mixed too.

Recently...there's never been any evidence of problems in mixing, ever. Well except for the ones that are demonstrated, but that's not proof of anything.

Latest one is contaminant solubility is the same regardless of oil temperature...

What is it for ?

Is it to make your own personal preference more justifiable to yourself ?

Drain your oil cold, don't state that it achieves the exact same outcome to newbies just because it helps perpetuate what your personal preference for comfort.

Mix to your heart's content, but don't state to newbies that there will never be an issue just because it placates that little voice in the back of your mind that suggests that you shouldn't be doing it.



You talkin to me ...

Cold changes cause I can, and I don't like getting burned. Mix, cause I can and have been involved with oil mixes since the 1960's. Never seen a bad result. But if you have one - point me there ...

Solubility, please ... If the engine is so bad that you need to be concerned with soluble contaminates coming out of suspension, that motor has other issues that need to be addressed. If you drop the pan on ANY of my over 200,000 mile gas motors and you can't see the steel, I'll buy you a $100 lunch at the restaurant of your choice here in the Napa Valley ...

If folks don't take care of their stuff, it ain't my problem. If they have sludged motors, they need KREEN, or at least BG109, oversized filters and more frequent changes ...

For the average BITOGER, oil is some sort of obsession bordering on OCD. You tell me that an engine running Delo 400 15W-40 and is down a gallon (out of 10) is going to get upset if I toss in a gallon of Delvac ...

I'm on the road and I need top-up oil. I don't carry gallons of the stuff. That's what Truck Stops are for, or Napa Auto Parts, etc. Top-up is almost always a mix - so what ...

And to all of you who claim to "know" what is what - how many of you'all have actually torn down and rebuilt engines? I've done marine, trucking, and automotive and been involved in crewed race cars in engine prep. So no, I don't have Gena's lab behind me, but I have been wrenching on engines since my first car (as a learning toy) was bought for me by my folks when I was 10. That was before 1960. And I been at it till today. What you got?

 

[Shannow]

Again, "nothing blew up" is not a performance standard.

 

[Silk]

0.07% reduction in fuel economy is?

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Again, "nothing blew up" is not a performance standard.


Never blew up in 300,000 miles means doing something OK. Or, in the case of the diesel trucks, coming up on 1,000,000 miles.

Show me a mix related failure where both oils were within vehicle MFG specs - you do not have such an example. You can't find one. They don't exist ...

I'm the guy with the high mileage fleet of daily drivers. If cold changes are an issue, I'd have seen it long ago. No, I don't change as the car/truck was sitting all night. I need to move it around the yard to drain the oil and jack it so the plug is low spot. So it might run for 1 or 2 minutes max. Then get drained.

Never seen the pan full of "muck" (someone please define muck with a chemical analysis so we know what is being discussed here ...). That's imaginary hoop-la ... Varnished valve covers - sure, temp differential and sheet metal. Oil pans, do not have the same issue, except maybe in Alaska ... Oil pans are full of hot oil constantly being slung by spinning crank. No cold surface condensation locations.

I have seen pans with "muck" in the junk yard on engines that were run a zillion miles w/o oil changes and run almost dry too. But that's not a well maintained motor. Show me a photo of a pan from a well maintained motor with "muck"? You don't have one. Don't exist ...

Scientific discussion of theoretical conditions and what actual engines do when operating don't seem to line up ...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

Show me a mix related failure where both oils were within vehicle MFG specs - you do not have such an example. You can't find one. They don't exist ...


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4356672/Mixing_Marine_Engine_Oils:_Com#Post4356672

note that all of the mixes met the "nothing blew up" standard.

Their handling of soot, and TBN weren't "normal" or desirable, but nothing blew up.

 

[claluja]

EVERYONE gives bad/questionable advice sometimes. Anyone who thinks otherwise, or who thinks they themselves sit in a catbird seat, is a fool.

 

[paulri]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Shannow, but it appears that the TBN depletion in mixed oils in the study is actually less (i.e., better) than in the single oils. Quote from the preview, page 5: "As far as can be seen TBN depletion in mixtures mostly does not significantly differ from TBN decline in single ones."

If you look at the relative decline (Table 3, page 5/5), you can see that the mix numbers are not on average, higher than with the single numbers. The average TBN depletion of the four mixes is 9.1%; the average depletion of the single oils is 11.925%.

Or am I missing something?

As far as the compatibility index, 1 or close is good.... can you give some context to these numbers? I see one combo is 1.06, another is 0.95. That doesn't sound too bad; but another mix is 1.7. That could be bad. What numbers are on the extreme---0 and 2.0?

Also, do these numbers refer to particle sizes---is that what gives you the 1.0 or 1.7 or 0.95? And so we are to assume that larger particles in the oil is bad---instead of, this mix is actually suspending more gunk in the oil, which is why the particles are bigger?



Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

Show me a mix related failure where both oils were within vehicle MFG specs - you do not have such an example. You can't find one. They don't exist ...


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4356672/Mixing_Marine_Engine_Oils:_Com#Post4356672

note that all of the mixes met the "nothing blew up" standard.

Their handling of soot, and TBN weren't "normal" or desirable, but nothing blew up.

 

[AirgunSavant]

I prefer listening to the guy that lives in the trenches.
Experience is always negated by the hands off type. Why? Because they don't have any.
Not an attack on anybody either. It may be a flaw in my thinking but I live by experience.

More unrelated nonsense.... I have been told many times that this new plastic is just what I need by an engineer with his certs and specs at his side. Most times it fails in short order. Use what you know works and if the forum says you're wrong, blow it off...

 

[meborder]

Not everything is well maintained. Not everything is purchased new. Sometime you have to deal with what you have.

Here's my personal example of "muck"

Sludge!

The comment in another thread was that cold changes are fine because whatever was dissolved when hot will stay dissolved when cold. Clearly this isn't true or there is no way for it to precipitate out in this bypass type filter. The method for this to happen is shockingly simple: Oil carrying dissolved and suspended solids was transported to the filter and when that oil cooled, some of it dropped out and collected at the bottom. Decades of this repeating over and over, and the filter canister is now 1/3 full of sludge and rendering the filter non operational.

Can you do cold changes? Sure. Have I done them? You bet you [censored] I have. Is there a risk? You bet. Should you do it on a known sludger? No! And anyone who says otherwise has a clear lack of understanding and ought not be giving advice .... Or at a bare minimum, take away something from the conversation by the way of learning something about solubility and speaking about things where you oughtn't.

People seem to think it is not ok to say "I dont know" or that they will be looked down upon for not saying anything at all. And quite frankly, if one feels the need to respond to something about what one doesn't know, that's perfectly fine, so long as it is called out as such. I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone expressing an uninformed opinion who calls it out as such and is offering conversation. What I loath is the one who says things like "temperature has nothing to do with solubility" and backs it up with "nothing blew up"
.. That is internet bullstein at it's finest.

Keep in mind that my old tractor has been abused, mistreated, rode hard, and put away wet for 60 years and nothing has blown up.... Yet, clearly things aren't right. But should I go telling people that frequent oil changes and regular maintenance dont really matter simply because I've got some empirical"evidence" to prove you can get away with it for 60+ years?

I think not.

If the suit fits, wear it proudly.
If it doesn't, then I'm not talking to you.

 

[650NutKase]

Here's my .02...

This is a forum where people post opinions on topics. I get that there is 'fact' vs 'credibility'. However, keep in mind that we are talking about MOTOR OIL!! Everyone's vehicle is distinctly unique from the next. No two variables will ever be the same when comparing oils. Climate, barometric pressure, vehicle history, etc. all play out in how an oil will perform. This is why certain cars 'like' certain oils, when at the same time, someone with the same car will say it performed poorly in their application. Assuming everyone else's opinions are poor, only make you less credible (at least to me).
I get that there are facts out there, as well as numerous studies, but in the end, we are splitting hairs. Shannow's article points out that there can be incompatibility between oils, but at what percentage will this happen to all of the other marine applications out there right now? Again, yes, it is indeed proof that mixing MAY be bad. However, in real life, day to day, applications, aren't we just splitting hairs???

--PS - I'm still learning a lot, and look on this site for knowledge. I understand that everyone has their own opinions and preferences. I like to hear both the lab side, as well as the on the road side.

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
I'll add to the list of annoyances:

• People who answer questions that nobody asked
  
• People who state things that although technically true, have nothing to do with the topic at hand

Looks in mirror

This guy gets it

 

[BrocLuno]

I'm superstitious of mirrors. Bad Juju hiding in there ...

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno

Show me a mix related failure where both oils were within vehicle MFG specs - you do not have such an example. You can't find one. They don't exist ...


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4356672/Mixing_Marine_Engine_Oils:_Com#Post4356672

note that all of the mixes met the "nothing blew up" standard.

Their handling of soot, and TBN weren't "normal" or desirable, but nothing blew up.


OK, I'll buy that one, but how many BITOGers are running ships engines ... I never worked on a ships system where we were changing 1,000~5,000 gallons of lube oil where we did not do a lab analysis of the top-out if a gradual change.

And almost every time it was because of a system failure that contaminated the oil. The TBN was blown by the time we got to it. But, ships have to make maintenance ports where they have access to contracted work. So you do emergency repairs, top-in 500 gallons and off they go. They will get proper fixes and new oil as soon as possible. And they have a lab sheet that says what the issue was/is, and that the mix will work ...

That has nothing to do with a 5 qt car system, or even a 10 gallon truck system ...

Our advice on adding 1~2 qts of name brand service station available oil to a motor down on on lube still holds. Havoline into Trop-Artic is no biggee. M1 into Ams-Oil is no biggee. Swamp Master into Redline may be a biggee, but nobody's asking about that ...

A guy has X qts of this and some of that and wants to know if it's OK? 99% of the time it will run fine for 5K. It's new clean oil. Will the TBN be most desirable - no. Does it matter if either of the constituents would go 10K by themselves, but are only going 5K mixed (or less) - not really.

Hardly anyone here runs oil to the depletion limit. Even a bad mix will have some reserve unless it's foaming as you pour it in