RP SM question/reply

[jmsbntz]

My email question:
I see that you now offer SM 0W-40 in addition the SM 5W-40 that you released last year.
Does Royal Purple plan on expanding these offerings by adding SM 0W-20 and 0W-30 grades?

RP response:
The RP 0W40 was introduced at the request of a major automotive parts retailer.
Without this request - we would not have brought out the 0W40 and do not have any plans for a SM 0W20 or 0W30 at this time.

It will be driven by market demand and at this point the market can not support these grades.
Performance wise, there is not a performance advantage in a 0W20 over our 5W20 except for very limited regions in North America where ambient temperatures would be below -25 C for any length of time.

We are not looking at any SM emission compliant formulations as we do not agree with the reduction in the primary antiwear additives as being an effective method at protecting the exhaust systems - it's not a linear relationship between the amount of additive that goes downstream - it's a function of the volatility of the base oils and additive packages - independent of the amount of ZDDP.

 

[bulwnkl]

So, do you think that the person at RP that replied to you is ignorant of the fact that it's ILSAC's GF-4 spec, not API's SM spec, that is limiting phosphorus? Or do you think he's assuming you're ignorant of that difference?

 

[TallPaul]

regardles of whose assumed ignorance, I like what they say about zddp levels. Maybe I will reconsider RP. They seem to be decent guys.

 

[bulwnkl]

Decently ignorant? I have visited with them at some length, and I find them to be marketing masters, but not necessarily chemistry masters.

 

[TallPaul]

Anybody who likes more zddp than is in the typical sm PCMO (due to GF-4) is okay in my book.

 

[kingrob]

Originally Posted By: TallPaul
Anybody who likes more zddp than is in the typical sm PCMO (due to GF-4) is okay in my book.


I agree.

I never cared much for RP but I understand and support their decision to keep on in the face of adversity.

As for zddp I do believe we're getting shorted today due to whoever's to blame in limiting it in current specs. If I could find "Non Street Legal" Valvoline Racing Oil in a weight other than 20w-50 I would run it quite a bit. It's a good bang for the buck in terms of healthy doses of ZDDP, phosphorus, and all the other "bad" things that used to be "good" for your car when it was new.

 

[Benzadmiral]

My impression is that most companies would have ended their message after ". . . do not have any plans for a SM 0W20 or 0W30 at this time."

Somebody actually went a little further that the usual canned response, and attempted to *explain* their business decisions to a customer! I like that!

 

[JonnyHotcakes]

Aren't we getting new additives that do the same job as ZDDP?

I would think that oils are getting better, not worse.

 

[02zx9r]

I will give them credit in this aspect of it, nice answer

 

[TallPaul]

Originally Posted By: kingrob
If I could find "Non Street Legal" Valvoline Racing Oil in a weight other than 20w-50 I would run it quite a bit.
Regular street legal VR1 is supposed to have 1200 and 1300 ppm zinc and phosphorus. Murrays Auto (CSK) used to carry the 10w30, but I haven't seen that weight lately. Bet NAPA could order it.

 

[genynnc]

I wish RP's street line oils had more z & p... I would defenitely purchase them...

Ok, this questions has always crossed my mind and sorry for my ignorance because I'm sure it's a stupid question but here it goes...

-Why don't oil companies that want to produce a high z & p oil just license their products with API on previous service levels... such as SH, SJ etc... instead of going for the SM?

 

[bulwnkl]

It's nothing to do with SM.

If you want to be GF-4 certified (starburst on the front of the bottle), one of the many things you must adhere to are phosphorus level limits. This has the secondary effect of limiting the amount of ZDDP in the oil because that compound contains phosphorus. There are other anti-wear additives available, but ZDDP is about the cheapest and it is very effective. It's much harder for companies to keep their price point, and also their margin, while switching away from ZDDP.

 

[aquariuscsm]

While on the subject of RP,are their XPR oils good to use in a high performance daily driver,or are they racing only oils that don`t have the detergents necessary for a dd oil?

 

[TallPaul]

There are additives you can get to boost zddp. It won't screw up the chemistry of your oil to boost SM a few hundred ppms.

 

[JonnyHotcakes]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
While on the subject of RP,are their XPR oils good to use in a high performance daily driver,or are they racing only oils that don`t have the detergents necessary for a dd oil?


There was a fantastic UOA recently of 0w10 XPR being used in a Nissan.

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: JonnyHotcakes
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
While on the subject of RP,are their XPR oils good to use in a high performance daily driver,or are they racing only oils that don`t have the detergents necessary for a dd oil?


There was a fantastic UOA recently of 0w10 XPR being used in a Nissan.


Where do you buy XPR? I only see their street oils. Wonder if the auto parts store can order it?

 

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
It's nothing to do with SM.

If you want to be GF-4 certified (starburst on the front of the bottle), one of the many things you must adhere to are phosphorus level limits. This has the secondary effect of limiting the amount of ZDDP in the oil because that compound contains phosphorus. There are other anti-wear additives available, but ZDDP is about the cheapest and it is very effective. It's much harder for companies to keep their price point, and also their margin, while switching away from ZDDP.

Isn't there also a maximum allowable limit for SM as well as for GF-4?

There's an Eneos uoa on nasioc. Check it out.

-Dennis

 

[bulwnkl]

Saw it the other night, Dennis. I wasn't impressed with iron wear at all, were you?

 

[bulwnkl]

Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Isn't there also a maximum allowable limit for SM as well as for GF-4?


Sorry; forgot to say that no, there is no upper phosphorus limit for SM on its own. The limit only applies if you also want ILSAC GF-4 certification. That's how you can have a non-energy-conserving (and thus non-ILSAC GF-4) 'high mileage' oil that is still SM rated and has more than the 0.08% P limit.

 

[txrhino]

TallPaul - my local autozone stocks VR1 in 30wt, might try them. I use the 30wt in my 67 mustang.