Restore & Protect - GDI Intake Valve Deposits

[Jetronic]

The thing/problem im seeing with people bringing up euro oil spec or whatever other oil specs, is that it seems you guys are merging two terms or outcomes into one.

Just because an oil can reduce deposit build up, does not mean they can remove deposits. These are two different standards. What valvoline restore and protect is claiming is that for the first time, this oil can market that it removes deposits.

If you start an engine, no matter how good the fuel and oil is, you take it apart and there will be deposits forming all over the interior of the engine. Just like if you were to take a gun and shoot it, there will be residue.

What most engine oils are claiming is they can reduce this deposit formation, sometimes so low the engines will be out of service before the deposits cause any issues on their own. Just as a made up number or example, Full synthetic oils might only add 1 percent of deposits a year vs 3 or 5 for conventional. Or something like that.

Valvoline is claiming restore and protect is the first oil to go into the negative number territory, hence "cleaner at 300k miles than at 100k miles".

The question I have is how true is the claim that they are the first oil to be able to reliably market that claim?

As far as high ester oils, valvoline's own patents claim that at around 60 percent ester in the oil, you begin to show this cleaning effect. And I guess the limiting factor is that if you have too much ester, the rubber seals can be deteriorated.

So which other oils stumbled upon that effect, if any, before valvoline with the premium blue restore?

Also, according to analysis, restore and protect is not using ester at high levels like their patent mentions, instead they are using a molecule in the additive package that targets specifically the deposits found in the rings. So again, are there any other oils that are openly claiming they have additives targeting piston ring deposits? And remember, not just reduction of formation of piston ring deposits over time, but actual removal of deposits that are already there.

Like I said, I'm sure some oils that are high in ester or whatever else, might have shown some anecdotal cleaning results. But did the manufacturer themselves ever back that up or claim they could get 100% deposits within 4 oil changes or something like that? Did they ever actually give you a standard you could hold them to in terms of cleaning potential? Has anyone else done that yet?

And finally back to the original point I was making, while some oils or oil specs claim to reduce valve deposit "formation", are any of them claiming valve deposit "cleaning"? Not just reduced formation, actual reversal of those deposits already baked on there? It seems the rep for valvoline doesn't know if it will however from the statement their is a strong possibility that it would reduce deposits if it got wet enough with this oil. However how wet it actually gets probably varies between cars. And thus they can only talk about the effects of the oil on actually submerged/basted parts on the inside. I would highly doubt it would add deposits to the valves, let alone at a rate exceeding whatever euro spec, etc, oil specs that claim to reduce formations.

Valvoline didn't say anything about percentages, go read that again. They are talking oxidation values, and those are not limited to 100.

 

[wingxzero]

Valvoline didn't say anything about percentages, go read that again. They are talking oxidation values, and those are not limited to 100.

Sir, there is a giant "removes up to 100% of deposits" label on each bottle. Those are the percentages I'm referring to.

 

[Jetronic]

Sir, there is a giant "removes up to 100% of deposits" label on each bottle. Those are the percentages I'm referring to.

Percentage of esters you keep mentioning. That is false, the ester content is always referred to by oxidation value

 

[wingxzero]

It seems I mixed up the anoline value of "60 or higher" as the threshold for where carbon is removed and ester content of around 50% Which higher than what redline and motul will admit to for their oils being in the 40 percent range. As far as the official numbers we know they could be less but no more than that. Either way that's some nerd stuff and it's besides the point (nor is it the mechanism of action for restore and protect oil as it is not high in ester hence why it is not that expensive); which is the fact that it seems non of these other oils seem to make any claims of cleaning deposits and mostly talk about keeping things clean by reducing the deposits formation.

 

[buster]

The thing/problem im seeing with people bringing up euro oil spec or whatever other oil specs, is that it seems you guys are merging two terms or outcomes into one.

Just because an oil can reduce deposit build up, does not mean they can remove deposits. These are two different standards. What valvoline restore and protect is claiming is that for the first time, this oil can market that it removes deposits.

If you start an engine, no matter how good the fuel and oil is, you take it apart and there will be deposits forming all over the interior of the engine. Just like if you were to take a gun and shoot it, there will be residue.

What most engine oils are claiming is they can reduce this deposit formation, sometimes so low the engines will be out of service before the deposits cause any issues on their own. Just as a made up number or example, Full synthetic oils might only add 1 percent of deposits a year vs 3 or 5 for conventional. Or something like that.

Valvoline is claiming restore and protect is the first oil to go into the negative number territory, hence "cleaner at 300k miles than at 100k miles".

The question I have is how true is the claim that they are the first oil to be able to reliably market that claim?

As far as high ester oils, valvoline's own patents claim that at around 60 percent ester in the oil, you begin to show this cleaning effect. And I guess the limiting factor is that if you have too much ester, the rubber seals can be deteriorated.

So which other oils stumbled upon that effect, if any, before valvoline with the premium blue restore?

Also, according to analysis, restore and protect is not using ester at high levels like their patent mentions, instead they are using a molecule in the additive package that targets specifically the deposits found in the rings. So again, are there any other oils that are openly claiming they have additives targeting piston ring deposits? And remember, not just reduction of formation of piston ring deposits over time, but actual removal of deposits that are already there.

Like I said, I'm sure some oils that are high in ester or whatever else, might have shown some anecdotal cleaning results. But did the manufacturer themselves ever back that up or claim they could get 100% deposits within 4 oil changes or something like that? Did they ever actually give you a standard you could hold them to in terms of cleaning potential? Has anyone else done that yet?

And finally back to the original point I was making, while some oils or oil specs claim to reduce valve deposit "formation", are any of them claiming valve deposit "cleaning"? Not just reduced formation, actual reversal of those deposits already baked on there? It seems the rep for valvoline doesn't know if it will however from the statement their is a strong possibility that it would reduce deposits if it got wet enough with this oil. However how wet it actually gets probably varies between cars. And thus they can only talk about the effects of the oil on actually submerged/basted parts on the inside. I would highly doubt it would add deposits to the valves, let alone at a rate exceeding whatever euro spec, etc, oil specs that claim to reduce formations.

I think this is generally correct as I understand it. That's why Valvoline is using words like "breakthrough" and "revolutionary." Their lead engineer worked at Infineum for 16 years. He said he's never seen anything like it.

Per the Valvoline patent, and formulation, Valvoline Premium Blue Restore was a 50% group V based product. It apparently takes a large % of AN and ester to clean piston deposits. AN's in lower doses won't clean but will run clean. High ester blends will run clean and clean up sludge/varnish, but removing piston deposits is no easy task, even for oils that are heavily ester based. Sludge and varnish, yes, piston deposits unlikely, unless you design the oil to be like Valvoline Premium Blue Restore.

My guess is HPL and Amsoil SS could maybe dissolve some piston deposits over time. To what extent I don't know because there has never been any actual testing done to prove it like Valvoline did using tear downs based on a modified IIIH test.

 

[Jetronic]

It seems I mixed up the anoline value of "60 or higher" as the threshold for where carbon is removed and ester content of around 50% Which higher than what redline and motul will admit to for their oils being in the 40 percent range. As far as the official numbers we know they could be less but no more than that. Either way that's some nerd stuff and it's besides the point (nor is it the mechanism of action for restore and protect oil as it is not high in ester hence why it is not that expensive); which is the fact that it seems non of these other oils seem to make any claims of cleaning deposits and mostly talk about keeping things clean by reducing the deposits formation.

I should clarify, it's the oxygen in the polar heads of the esters that makes them attracted to metal, and the hydrocarbon tails that makes them mixable with oil. But you can have long tails or short tails, the longer the tail the less polar the ester becomes. So by working with oxidation values, you can have more of the long tail esters, or less of the short tail ones and arrive at a similar polarity for the mix.

And that polarity is how the cleaning works, they prevent the nasty stuff like varnish to attach themselves to the metal surfaces (the oil that becomes varnish is also oxydated).

So nobody might claim that ester oils remove 100% of deposits, but they do remove some and/or prevent new ones. There were no surprises in the Premium blue restore patent, about the only thing novel in it was the marketing claim IMO. The oxidation values mentioned in the patent are easily reached by something like Red Line performance series oils, and has been for decades.

Restore and protect works differently, very low oxidation value likely from the zddp, but I haven't seen a nitration value of it yet (haven't really been looking though).

 

[Jetronic]

I think this is generally correct as I understand it. That's why Valvoline is using words like "breakthrough" and "revolutionary." Their lead engineer worked at Infineum for 16 years. He said he's never seen anything like it.

Per the Valvoline patent, and formulation, Valvoline Premium Blue Restore was a 50% group V based product. It apparently takes a large % of AN and ester to clean piston deposits. AN's in lower doses won't clean but will run clean. High ester blends will run clean and clean up sludge/varnish, but removing piston deposits is no easy task, even for oils that are heavily ester based. Sludge and varnish, yes, piston deposits unlikely, unless you design the oil to be like Valvoline Premium Blue Restore.

My guess is HPL and Amsoil SS could maybe dissolve some piston deposits over time. To what extent I don't know because there has never been any actual testing done to prove it like Valvoline did using tear downs based on a modified IIIH test.

It doesn't have to be 100% clean to have 100% effect though. Rings are stuck or not, and that would be the failure point.

 

[burbguy82]

Valvoline didn't say anything about percentages, go read that again

sure they have....but

Sir, there is a giant "removes up to 100% of deposits" label on each bottle

.0001% of 100% would satisfy their claim of up to 100%

 

[buster]

It doesn't have to be 100% clean to have 100% effect though. Rings are stuck or not, and that would be the failure point.

Not sure what you're saying.....

 

[Jetronic]

Not sure what you're saying.....

a little bit of crud in the ringlands doesn't hurt anything, what is needed is that it never gets to rings sticking or oil control not working. And that might just be achieveable by Amsoil, HPL, Red Line and other (usually PAO/ester) oils, maybe including M1 FS 0w-40.

 

[Jetronic]

sure they have....but

.0001% of 100% would satisfy their claim of up to 100%

We're talking % or ester content though

 

[burbguy82]

We're talking % or ester content though

Sure, but you are correlating two things that do not correlate.

The thread as I understand is cleaning claims of Valvoline R&P

 

[Jetronic]

Sure, but you are correlating two things that do not correlate.

The thread as I understand is cleaning claims of Valvoline R&P

I replied to a specific post and specifically to a claim of the ester % that is false (and has been repeated in other threads). It's been cleared up now thougjh.

 

[buster]

a little bit of crud in the ringlands doesn't hurt anything, what is needed is that it never gets to rings sticking or oil control not working. And that might just be achieveable by Amsoil, HPL, Red Line and other (usually PAO/ester) oils, maybe including M1 FS 0w-40.

gotcha. I agree.

 

[OVERKILL]

It seems I mixed up the anoline value of "60 or higher" as the threshold for where carbon is removed and ester content of around 50% Which higher than what redline and motul will admit to for their oils being in the 40 percent range. As far as the official numbers we know they could be less but no more than that. Either way that's some nerd stuff and it's besides the point (nor is it the mechanism of action for restore and protect oil as it is not high in ester hence why it is not that expensive); which is the fact that it seems non of these other oils seem to make any claims of cleaning deposits and mostly talk about keeping things clean by reducing the deposits formation.

Redline is nowhere near 40% ester, if the SDS sheets are to be believed, the oils are mostly PAO with some ester added.

 

[buster]

Redline is nowhere near 40% ester, if the SDS sheets are to be believed, the oils are mostly PAO with some ester added.

Dave from Red Line said via phone conversation that some grades are up to 40%. SDS show 50-70% PAO so that leaves room for substantial ester. How much is still a guess. But it's pretty high. Maybe more like 15-25%

40% does seem high though and while oxidation value doesn't tell you the %, I could see the 5w40 or 0w40 using a good amount based on virgin oxidation reading of 129 which is higher than Valvoline Premium Blue Restore which is 110.

They're also using a better PAO now and Noack is lowest in industry across the board.

 

[OVERKILL]

It apparently takes a large % of AN and ester to clean piston deposits. AN's in lower doses won't clean but will run clean. High ester blends will run clean and clean up sludge/varnish, but removing piston deposits is no easy task, even for oils that are heavily ester based. Sludge and varnish, yes, piston deposits unlikely, unless you design the oil to be like Valvoline Premium Blue Restore.

I think we should ask @High Performance Lubricants about this, as their EC formulation, in solution, would not have a very high level of esters overall.

The King presentation from the STLE seemed to revolve around a formulation with 20% AN in it, that showed considerable (complete) cleaning, though they don't specifically spell out the percentage used in the formula in service during the discovery of the belt cleaning, just that it contained AN. I'm not sure if we consider 20% a "large" percentage, and it may be different for engine oils vs hot press belts.

The problem with using both esters and AN's is that they are expensive to formulate with, that will exclude them from most box store products.

 

[OVERKILL]

Dave from Red Line said via phone conversation that some grades are up to 40%. SDS show 50-70% PAO so that leaves room for substantial ester. How much is still a guess. But it's pretty high. Maybe more like 15-25%

Yes, I think it's more like 15-25%, depending on the grade. Remember, the additive package is in there too.

40% does seem high though and while oxidation value doesn't tell you the %, I could see the 5w40 or 0w40 using a good amount based on virgin oxidation reading of 129 which is higher than Valvoline Premium Blue Restore which is 110.

They're also using a better PAO now and Noack is lowest in industry across the board.

Yes, being owned by P66 definitely has its advantages!

 

[buster]

I think we should ask @High Performance Lubricants about this, as their EC formulation, in solution, would not have a very high level of esters overall.

The King presentation from the STLE seemed to revolve around a formulation with 20% AN in it, that showed considerable (complete) cleaning, though they don't specifically spell out the percentage used in the formula in service during the discovery of the belt cleaning, just that it contained AN. I'm not sure if we consider 20% a "large" percentage, and it may be different for engine oils vs hot press belts.

The problem with using both esters and AN's is that they are expensive to formulate with, that will exclude them from most box store products.

Good points. I'd love to know that too.

With HPL you're likely never going to get deposits anyway so it's almost a non-issue I feel with the higher end boutique oils.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Dave from Red Line said via phone conversation that some grades are up to 40%. SDS show 50-70% PAO so that leaves room for substantial ester. How much is still a guess. But it's pretty high. Maybe more like 15-25%

40% does seem high though and while oxidation value doesn't tell you the %, I could see the 5w40 or 0w40 using a good amount based on virgin oxidation reading of 129 which is higher than Valvoline Premium Blue Restore which is 110.

They're also using a better PAO now and Noack is lowest in industry across the board.

Didn't he also say they were the non-polar variety so they didn't compete with the AW additives?