I would do one or the other and not both at same time. You don't know what the EC will do to the R&P. I'm not one to mix chemistry.
Restore & Protect - GDI Intake Valve Deposits
- Thread starter buster
- Start date
This reminds me that I wanted to try the EC after at least 4 OCIs with the Valvoline Restore and Protect.
I could also check the engine (valve cover, intake, pistons, etc) to see what, if any cleaning is taking place, but I'm too lazy, not quite handy enough and cheap. Now if we was taking about tearing down the engine on a project car and not my commuter, that would be different and I would chance it.
For now I take it on faith.
R&P was designed (albeit by accident) to clean piston deposits. Their customer service said it will clean any metal it comes in contact with. They also intentionally designed to clean slowly being it would be a product consumers would run as usual.
With other oils that claim to clean, this is based on detergent levels rather than polar base oils and also in reference to sludge buildup. Most high mileage oils or boutique oils such as Amsoil SS/HPL/RL have "boosted" detergent levels to keep engines clean and also clean neglected engines (High Mileage oils). Amsoil SS has a stout detergent level of 1,355 ppm of Ca and 975 of mg. HPL has double the amount of Mg of Amsoil, which contributes to the high TBN retention and cleaning ability. Most of the cleaning HPL does may come from the very high detergent levels more so than the AN/Esters, although they likely help.
Keep in mind, the patents for Premium Blue Restore used 50% Group V to clean. So just because other oils are using polar base oils don't always mean they will remove stubborn carbon or varnish. Red Line did not. They will run cleaner though.
Direct injectors usually have multiple nozzles, and will spray a bit of fuel onto the the tops of the valves while they're open.
Here's what the valves from a TGDI Subaru look like at 30k miles. The valve tops and lower valve stem are kept pretty clean from the fuel spray. The upper valve stem is dirty, but this probably doesn't affect flow very much.
For this engine, fuel additives are probably far more important than what oil is used.
Use Top Tier gas for cleaner valves . Especially those with P.E.A. such as CHEVRON , TEXACO , CALTEX , etc.. The sooner the better after purchase of a new or used vehicle . States using Top Tier gasoline in the vehicle owners manual .
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I must have missed that part on the website for TopTier gas. I thought part of that badge/certification was that it had to have a certain amount of PEA in it?
I think this line is key. That photo is after the very hard testing. The heat / intensity of that test seems to have helped restore and protect work quickly. It will take longer to work in a daily driver used traditionally. Not a complaint, just something to keep in mind.
Biting down hard on the skepticism bone is basically the same thing, in reverse. I don't know what makes someone go completely hyperbolic over a study that's frankly out of their league to criticize. If that sounds harsh, so is calling other posters "mindless", but ok.
Whatever prompted you to type out that compendium, this thread really isn't the place for that anti-science.
It's not anti-science, Son Of Joe was a formulator. HPL and Red Line both have full SAPS oils that have been used in GDI engines with no identifiable problems with IVD's. You posted the Lubrizol study, I disagreed with it. I'm not saying it's 100% certain either way, but there is room for debate. One study from Lubrizol that is now several years old isn't definitive.
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Many discoveries made in science are by accident. Viagra included.
My MB 3.5's spray fuel several times and the spark plugs fire several times during the combustion cycle. Maybe that's why these engines don't have IVD problems. I don't know about the new 4cyl turbos they use. The DI's have a number of small holes in the nozzles.
You know, I never paid much attention to low/mid SAPS oil and don't have any engine requiring that. What's the story behind low/mid SAPS oils? All I can recall is CAT protection if the engine burns too much oil or dealing with bad fuel quality in some countries. I may have read more about it but again since I didn't have the need, I forgot what I may have read.
Are there any other claims for example reduced IVD?
If I was selling a low/mid-SAPS oil, I would get 2 engines that are known to be bad with IVD. A few examples were given here by @edyvw.
Then select two relatively similar (i.e. no dino vs. syn) synthetic oils in the same family. One full-SAPS and the other low or mid SAPS like 229.51/2 or C3 but try to keep the other attributes relatively or as much as possible the same. e.g. base oil, Noack, vm type, spread, etc. Keep the OCIs relatively short so it won't impact the lower SAPS oil. Use a good fuel and let them run ...
I'm surprised YouTube doesn't have any test like this!
It's just one test and some may argue that it would not be conclusive and it's YouTube ... but you get your money back from the bitog clicks!
Scotty can run the test in his backyard.
Now that we have identified the location, we need money for the engines.
Are there any other claims for example reduced IVD?
If I was selling a low/mid-SAPS oil, I would get 2 engines that are known to be bad with IVD. A few examples were given here by @edyvw.
Then select two relatively similar (i.e. no dino vs. syn) synthetic oils in the same family. One full-SAPS and the other low or mid SAPS like 229.51/2 or C3 but try to keep the other attributes relatively or as much as possible the same. e.g. base oil, Noack, vm type, spread, etc. Keep the OCIs relatively short so it won't impact the lower SAPS oil. Use a good fuel and let them run ...
I'm surprised YouTube doesn't have any test like this!
It's just one test and some may argue that it would not be conclusive and it's YouTube ... but you get your money back from the bitog clicks!
Scotty can run the test in his backyard.
Now that we have identified the location, we need money for the engines.
I forgot this was the GDI thread. My apologies.
I think to put things on a par, maybe if there were competing studies there would be batter data to draw upon, at a minimum.
Frankly I think IV deposits are out of reach for R&P, but the only mechanism that could have affected the IV in the reduced SAPS study would be oil mist during VVT overlap / scavenging. WITH THE LUBRIZOL STUDY IN MIND, yes there is a glimmer of hope.
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You were once curious about VME - and they made claims regarding IVD. Based on the initial price - think some took that to mean they did more with base stock than additives like R&P does at a lower price … ???
The thing/problem im seeing with people bringing up euro oil spec or whatever other oil specs, is that it seems you guys are merging two terms or outcomes into one.
Just because an oil can reduce deposit build up, does not mean they can remove deposits. These are two different standards. What valvoline restore and protect is claiming is that for the first time, this oil can market that it removes deposits.
If you start an engine, no matter how good the fuel and oil is, you take it apart and there will be deposits forming all over the interior of the engine. Just like if you were to take a gun and shoot it, there will be residue.
What most engine oils are claiming is they can reduce this deposit formation, sometimes so low the engines will be out of service before the deposits cause any issues on their own. Just as a made up number or example, Full synthetic oils might only add 1 percent of deposits a year vs 3 or 5 for conventional. Or something like that.
Valvoline is claiming restore and protect is the first oil to go into the negative number territory, hence "cleaner at 300k miles than at 100k miles".
The question I have is how true is the claim that they are the first oil to be able to reliably market that claim?
As far as high ester oils, valvoline's own patents claim that at around 60 percent ester in the oil, you begin to show this cleaning effect. And I guess the limiting factor is that if you have too much ester, the rubber seals can be deteriorated.
So which other oils stumbled upon that effect, if any, before valvoline with the premium blue restore?
Also, according to analysis, restore and protect is not using ester at high levels like their patent mentions, instead they are using a molecule in the additive package that targets specifically the deposits found in the rings. So again, are there any other oils that are openly claiming they have additives targeting piston ring deposits? And remember, not just reduction of formation of piston ring deposits over time, but actual removal of deposits that are already there.
Like I said, I'm sure some oils that are high in ester or whatever else, might have shown some anecdotal cleaning results. But did the manufacturer themselves ever back that up or claim they could get 100% deposits within 4 oil changes or something like that? Did they ever actually give you a standard you could hold them to in terms of cleaning potential? Has anyone else done that yet?
And finally back to the original point I was making, while some oils or oil specs claim to reduce valve deposit "formation", are any of them claiming valve deposit "cleaning"? Not just reduced formation, actual reversal of those deposits already baked on there? It seems the rep for valvoline doesn't know if it will however from the statement their is a strong possibility that it would reduce deposits if it got wet enough with this oil. However how wet it actually gets probably varies between cars. And thus they can only talk about the effects of the oil on actually submerged/basted parts on the inside. I would highly doubt it would add deposits to the valves, let alone at a rate exceeding whatever euro spec, etc, oil specs that claim to reduce formations.
Just because an oil can reduce deposit build up, does not mean they can remove deposits. These are two different standards. What valvoline restore and protect is claiming is that for the first time, this oil can market that it removes deposits.
If you start an engine, no matter how good the fuel and oil is, you take it apart and there will be deposits forming all over the interior of the engine. Just like if you were to take a gun and shoot it, there will be residue.
What most engine oils are claiming is they can reduce this deposit formation, sometimes so low the engines will be out of service before the deposits cause any issues on their own. Just as a made up number or example, Full synthetic oils might only add 1 percent of deposits a year vs 3 or 5 for conventional. Or something like that.
Valvoline is claiming restore and protect is the first oil to go into the negative number territory, hence "cleaner at 300k miles than at 100k miles".
The question I have is how true is the claim that they are the first oil to be able to reliably market that claim?
As far as high ester oils, valvoline's own patents claim that at around 60 percent ester in the oil, you begin to show this cleaning effect. And I guess the limiting factor is that if you have too much ester, the rubber seals can be deteriorated.
So which other oils stumbled upon that effect, if any, before valvoline with the premium blue restore?
Also, according to analysis, restore and protect is not using ester at high levels like their patent mentions, instead they are using a molecule in the additive package that targets specifically the deposits found in the rings. So again, are there any other oils that are openly claiming they have additives targeting piston ring deposits? And remember, not just reduction of formation of piston ring deposits over time, but actual removal of deposits that are already there.
Like I said, I'm sure some oils that are high in ester or whatever else, might have shown some anecdotal cleaning results. But did the manufacturer themselves ever back that up or claim they could get 100% deposits within 4 oil changes or something like that? Did they ever actually give you a standard you could hold them to in terms of cleaning potential? Has anyone else done that yet?
And finally back to the original point I was making, while some oils or oil specs claim to reduce valve deposit "formation", are any of them claiming valve deposit "cleaning"? Not just reduced formation, actual reversal of those deposits already baked on there? It seems the rep for valvoline doesn't know if it will however from the statement their is a strong possibility that it would reduce deposits if it got wet enough with this oil. However how wet it actually gets probably varies between cars. And thus they can only talk about the effects of the oil on actually submerged/basted parts on the inside. I would highly doubt it would add deposits to the valves, let alone at a rate exceeding whatever euro spec, etc, oil specs that claim to reduce formations.
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Oil also comes down the valve stems, it's not a perfect seal up there. It has to, or the valve stems would wear away the guides.