Redline Water Wetter and Royal Purple Purple Ice

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
People that design, build, and patent thermostat for a living never claim that it controls the temperature but you do for some reason.


BTW, I designed and had constructed a thermostat system 15 years ago that another BITOGer is using on the water pump inlet side of his car...as per my design.

 

[finalyzd]

Great arguement, mechanix you say redline water wetter doesnr have astm whatever standard. But doesn't none of redline products have anytype of approvals or api certs? If this was a dumb question my bad. Didn't do any research.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
People that design, build, and patent thermostat for a living never claim that it controls the temperature but you do for some reason.


BTW, I designed and had constructed a thermostat system 15 years ago that another BITOGer is using on the water pump inlet side of his car...as per my design.


You forgot one little fact that in almost any cars (could be every cars but I don't want to make that claim) you can remove the thermostat and the engine temperature will be fine. So, what is the real purpose of the car thermostat? Will the toilet still be working correctly if you remove the float valve (btw, the float valve is not a thermostat nor functionally equivalent)? Will your house warm up if you remove the home thermostat? See the difference? We are talking about car engine thermostat and not toilet or living room.

Earlier in my career prior to heading the design group at Honeywell Flight Control System, I was a manager at Honeywell Home Automation here in Phoenix which design, build, and patent home thermostat. The last count on that thermostat design and its derivatives is over 2 million units built and sold worldwide.

 

[Boss302fan]

I have used WW many times just to try it out. Used it in new cars and also in some of my classic cars. To be honest, it did not effect the temps at all.

Installing your stat backwards is a big mistake... If you really think that it will function as designed, think again. Most likely, it may open after initial start but will not do so until the engine is close to overheating. If there is a bypass in the thermostat housing it may work but again will open much later then it should.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: finalyzd
Great arguement, mechanix you say redline water wetter doesnr have astm whatever standard. But doesn't none of redline products have anytype of approvals or api certs? If this was a dumb question my bad. Didn't do any research.


I see your point but motor oil and coolant corrosion prtotection standards are 2 different things really. With WW it is analagous to an oil additive more than motor oil. The ASTM standards for coolant corrosion are pretty straight forward and anyone marketing a coolant additive should at least meet them.

WW would be analagous to them saying, "here use this as motor oil. It's not really motor oil but it's better than motor oil.".

 

[440Magnum]

[
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

Fact 1: I TOLD YOU the thermostat CONTROLS THE FLOW OF COOLANT and not the temperature. Without a radiator the temperature of the coolant will not change, hence the thermostat does not control the temperature.


I just about don't know how to respond to this. Yes, if you want to parse semantics down to the last nit, then the thermostat controls water flow. It opens at a certain temperature and lets water flow through the radiator where it is cooled, and then returns to the engine. When the flow rate is sufficient that the radiator is removing heat faster than the engine is generating it (the normal condition for any vehicle actually moving through the air) then the thermostat closes just enough to maintain the water exiting the engine block at the set temperature.

In other words to make a long paragraph short: the thermostat controls the engine temperature!

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

Fact 2: The radiator removes heat (i.e. a heat exchanger) from the coolant so therefore it controls the temperature of the coolant.


Gadzooks, man! The radiator is an entirely PASSIVE device. It has no control function whatsoever, it will simply reject heat as fast as it can according to the laws of thermodynamics, based on how fast coolant is flowing through it (which is CONTROLLED by the thermostat), how fast air is flowing over it (which is controlled by the electric fan or fan clutch or vehicle motion), and the temperature differential between the water inside it and the air outside it.

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Once the engine is warmed up the thermostat is pretty much useless.



Demonstrably false. Even in 100+ degree weather, if there is enough airflow over the radiator (due to vehicle movement or fan operation) then the thermostat will partially close or else the engine temperature will drop lower than the thermostat's setpoint (160, 180, 195 etc. degrees F, significantly hotter than the surrounding air), unless the cooling system is not operating up to par or the engine's output is much higher than the cooling system was designed for. I'm not talking about the extreme case of blasting up Wolf Creek Pass with your pedal to the floor, towing a loaded cattle trailer behind you and the AC blasting, I'm talking about *normal* to even semi-extreme driving conditions that are within the design specs of the vehicle.(*)

Now if you want to talk about those extreme cases where the thermostat has "lost control" of the system, you're limited strictly by thermodynamics. The biggest barrier to effective heat transfer in a maxed-out system can be one of several things- most likely is steam pockets in the cooling system. NOT lack of sufficient wetting of the water jackets and radiator, especially if there is antifreeze in the system. And I've already stated that I agree wetters could help the situation over pure water. I just don't think they help when added to antifreeze. Based both on the science of it and on personal experience.

(*) Note- I've actually owned some vehicles that wouldn't overheat even when overloaded and operated WFO for extended periods.

 

[Boss302fan]

Magnum,

I think you may find out that a lot of people on this forum are clueless and it really does not pay to argue with them.

 

[Gradient]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic


Earlier in my career prior to heading the design group at Honeywell Flight Control System, I was a manager at Honeywell Home Automation here in Phoenix which design, build, and patent home thermostat.

Seriously?

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum


I just about don't know how to respond to this. Yes, if you want to parse semantics down to the last nit, then the thermostat controls water flow. It opens at a certain temperature and lets water flow through the radiator where it is cooled, and then returns to the engine. When the flow rate is sufficient that the radiator is removing heat faster than the engine is generating it (the normal condition for any vehicle actually moving through the air) then the thermostat closes just enough to maintain the water exiting the engine block at the set temperature.

In other words to make a long paragraph short: the thermostat controls the engine temperature!


I think you got some of the picture but not all of the picture. The thermostat is there for engine efficiency via coolant flow control and not to control the temperature. If there is no radiator then does it matter if the thermostat is closed or opened? Look at all the patents for any engine thermostat and you will not see the phrase "the thermostat control the engine temperature". You are too focus on the word thermostat and not its actual function in an engine. For a standard engine thermostat setting of 190F the actual coolant temperature can varies from 175-207F on a normal summer day. So, what is the temperature the thermostat is trying to set the coolant to?


Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

Fact 2: The radiator removes heat (i.e. a heat exchanger) from the coolant so therefore it controls the temperature of the coolant.


Gadzooks, man! The radiator is an entirely PASSIVE device. It has no control function whatsoever, it will simply reject heat as fast as it can according to the laws of thermodynamics, based on how fast coolant is flowing through it (which is CONTROLLED by the thermostat), how fast air is flowing over it (which is controlled by the electric fan or fan clutch or vehicle motion), and the temperature differential between the water inside it and the air outside it.


Again, you only see part of the picture. Without the water pump, the fan, and the vehicle sitting still the radiator still function by "radiating" heat to the atmosphere due to the law of thermal dynamics. Remember those old oil heaters that radiate heat in those old homes? There is no fan there either. The reason for the water pump and the radiator fan is so that they can build a small enough radiator to fit into a vehicle. The law of thermodynamics postulate that energy can be exchanged between physical systems as heat or work. The themostat exchanges very very very little heat or work compares to the radiator.


Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Once the engine is warmed up the thermostat is pretty much useless.



Demonstrably false. Even in 100+ degree weather, if there is enough airflow over the radiator (due to vehicle movement or fan operation) then the thermostat will partially close or else the engine temperature will drop lower than the thermostat's setpoint (160, 180, 195 etc. degrees F, significantly hotter than the surrounding air), unless the cooling system is not operating up to par or the engine's output is much higher than the cooling system was designed for.

Now if you want to talk about those extreme cases where the thermostat has "lost control" of the system, you're limited strictly by thermodynamics. The biggest barrier to effective heat transfer in a maxed-out system can be one of several things- most likely is steam pockets in the cooling system. NOT lack of sufficient wetting of the water jackets and radiator, especially if there is antifreeze in the system. And I've already stated that I agree wetters could help the situation over pure water. I just don't think they help when added to antifreeze. Based both on the science of it and on personal experience.



Why are there multiple values of thermostat setting like you've said? Why not just pick a standard temperature setting instead of 160/180/190/195 or 203 etc.? What is the purpose of a 160F thermostat and why car manufacturers don't use it? Why is it that you can remove the thermostat from any new vehicle and it still run fine (hence the word useless)? The links given by me previously and my personal experiences show that Water Wetter does work with antifreeze solutions. You might not see the difference with the factory gauges but you will with an actual coolant or engine thermometer. There is really no science to a car thermostat unless you are still in high school.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Magnum,

I think you may find out that a lot of people on this forum are clueless and it really does not pay to argue with them.


Care to answer questions that I have posted above or do you mean that you are clueless?

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx


I see your point but motor oil and coolant corrosion prtotection standards are 2 different things really. With WW it is analagous to an oil additive more than motor oil. The ASTM standards for coolant corrosion are pretty straight forward and anyone marketing a coolant additive should at least meet them.

WW would be analagous to them saying, "here use this as motor oil. It's not really motor oil but it's better than motor oil.".



Why don't you read the bottle of Water Wetter or call Red Line for product information instead of just guessing? Water Wetter is a coolant additive that improves heat transfer and reduces cylinder head temperature. It also has very good corrosion protection, but it is not sold as an anti-corrosion additive. You can buy the diesel version which has no rust and corrosion inhibitors.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=75&pcid=10

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
For a standard engine thermostat setting of 190F the actual coolant temperature can varies from 175-207F on a normal summer day. So, what is the temperature the thermostat is trying to set the coolant to?


So did the CONTROL systems you designed at Honeywell have overshoot/undershoot, or did they provide absolutely constant room temperature under varying heat loads and ambient temperatures ?

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

So did the CONTROL systems you designed at Honeywell have overshoot/undershoot, or did they provide absolutely constant room temperature under varying heat loads and ambient temperatures ?


A typical Honeywell aerospace thermal switch has a set point tolerance of +-1.5F from -120F to +300F. For space application such as the space shuttle or space station where an environment needs to be temperature controlled for scientific experiments, Honeywell will hand select the thermal switches that have a tolerance of +-0.2F (within a specific temp range) and use a control software algorithm to ensure that the temperature will not overshoot. These switches run over $1,000 per piece.

A typical home application has a max tolerance of +-3.0F if everything is working according to plan. Hey! What do you expect for less than $100?

 

[Shannow]

So a thermostat CONTROLing to 10-15F is reasonable in a $10 part ?

 

[Boss302fan]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Boss302fan
Magnum,

I think you may find out that a lot of people on this forum are clueless and it really does not pay to argue with them.


Care to answer questions that I have posted above or do you mean that you are clueless?


Perfect... I think admin should close this down.

 

[azsynthetic]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
So a thermostat CONTROLing to 10-15F is reasonable in a $10 part ?


A typical car thermostat costs less than $1 to produce and it does not control the temperature, only coolant flow. The radiator fan does not control the engine temperature only the air flow through the radiator. Only a heat exchanger can change the temperature and most radiators cost more than $100. You can ask questions all day long and the fact remains the same. The makers of the engine thermostats do not claim that it control the engine temperature, only you do.

 

[bigmike]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Here are some independent tests:

http://www.importtuner.com/reviews/impp_0808_coolant_additives/index.html

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/document.asp?DocID=TECH00010

http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0703_turp_cooling_system_additives/index.html

http://www.jcna.com/library/tech/tech0011.html



Thank you for this. Some of it was an interesting read.

I've used WW before in a 50/50 mix. I did not do it in hopes of reducing the temperature of the mix, but rather wanted a surfactant in my cooling system. Nothing abnormal has occurred by doing this in my GM application using Dexcool (over 4 years).

How do I know it works or doesn't work? I don't. I have no idea if it works or not. I have read and understand surfactant information and have made a judgment call. It's why I use MMO as well.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So a thermostat CONTROLing to 10-15F is reasonable in a $10 part ?


A typical car thermostat costs less than $1 to produce and it does not control the temperature, only coolant flow. The radiator fan does not control the engine temperature only the air flow through the radiator. Only a heat exchanger can change the temperature and most radiators cost more than $100. You can ask questions all day long and the fact remains the same. The makers of the engine thermostats do not claim that it control the engine temperature, only you do.



This is just silly semantics. Anyone knows that a cooling system can be overloaded in extreme conditions. Ever had a stuck thermostat and an overheating engine? What about a thermostat stuck open and the engine never reaches operating temperature? So the thermostat does control over and under cooling.For all practical purposes that's why the thermostat controls coolant temperature and by extention engine temperature. The cooling system in total-radiator, cooling capacity etc control the cooling systems capacity only.

As long as the cooling system is not overloaded the car will run all day at the thermostat rating and with a 50/50 coolant mix and no WW.

 

[mechanicx]

BigMike there's nothing wrong with that. But this other guy is claiming that WW is objectively proven to increase cooling significantly and to be a good corrosion inhibitor when it really hasn't been. That's the difference.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: azsynthetic

Why are there multiple values of thermostat setting like you've said? Why not just pick a standard temperature setting instead of 160/180/190/195 or 203 etc.?



Because different engine manufacturers at different times have wanted to set the operating temperature of their engines to those values, for reasons such as reducing unburned HC emisisons (helped by running hotter) or reducing the probability of detonation (helped by running cooler). Normally its a balancing act between competing goals like those two to get the best operating temp for a given engine.

I could turn the question around... if, as you say, the thermostat doesn't actually control the temperature of the engine, then why do they even put a temperature marking on them? Why do they make different values?? Of COURSE the thermostat sets the operating temperature of the engine! That's exactly why different values (settings) are manufactured. Your very question moots your whole point.


Originally Posted By: azsynthetic
Why is it that you can remove the thermostat from any new vehicle and it still run fine (hence the word useless)?


It WON'T run fine. If you try to run any modern vehicle without a thermostat (and its actually moving enough to generate ram-air flow through the radiator so that the electric fan won't take over and control things completely), the computer will never go into closed-loop operation and you'll eventually get an error code and fail emissions testing. Not to mention suffer excessive fuel dilution in the oil and excessive cylinder wall wear from sub-optimal ring and cylinder wall temperatures.