Redline vs Mobil 1, any real difference?

[f355spider]

They do not currently sell any oil filters for the TR

Not sure if Baldwin makes any other oil filters for Ferrari applications. The story goes that the owner of Baldwin bought a 308 in the 1980s and decided to make a filter for it. I don't think he ever bought a TR.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I have driven Lamborghini and Ferrari cars for decades, been on the track and had friends who raced cars. Todays engine oils are far superior to those of the time when the Mondial was produced. You could run a grade or two thinner that will result in a cooler running engine. Cooler = less wear and tear.

The properties of viscosity hasn't changed ... they never will. A lower viscosity might reduce the oil temperature slightly, but it still could not provide enough film thickness to fully protect moving parts. Engines shouldn't have to fully rely on the sacrificial AF/AW tribofilm. Cooler oil doesn't mean less wear if the viscosity still isn't enough to keep parts from rubbing too much, it just means cooler oil.

What does give less wear is increased film thickness, all other factors held constant. If that wasn't the case, high performance engine makers wouldn't be putting thicker oil in the engines (like the Ford Boss, GT350, GT500 and regular Coyote Track Pack cars, etc) and instead just recommend they all use xW-20. Obviously Ford Performance says use a higher viscosity in applications like track use because even if the oil temperature runs hotter vs a thinner oil, the temperature increase does not negate the added wear protection the oil gives.

Post in thread 'High oil temps in 2023 f150 powerboost should I move to 0w40?'

Tuesday at 5:40 AM

One thing that should be realized is that thicker oil results in a thicker film thickness, which means the shear rate and associated temp rise factor from the shear rate is lower in the oil film. That helps offsets the temp rise from the temp rise factot from the thicker viscosity itself. So the resulting temp rise isn't enough to negate the advantage of the thicker film thickness.

• ZeeOSix

• 

Post in thread 'High oil temps in 2023 f150 powerboost should I move to 0w40?'

Tuesday at 2:26 PM

In my small engines going from 30wt to a 50wt appears to make them run a few degrees hotter. Not enough of a difference to make a difference.
If my pressure washer runs 270f with 30wt and 280f with 50wt, I definitely want that 50wt in there.

Here's test data showing the oil temperature in a journal bearing with 0W-20 and 0W-30 at different RPM. At 4000 RPM the temperature rise is only 1.5 deg C (2.7 deg F). It's not as much as some people seem to think it would be. As the graph shows, the temperature rise would be lower at lower RPM ... not many people are cruising around...

• ZeeOSix

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• 
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However, the best way to chose a viscosity grade is to look at your temperatures and pressures during your way of using the car. In my 575 Maranello owners manual, for example, they stated the target oil pressure should be 70 PSI at 6,000 RPM. This is regardless of the temperature and is used as a guide to what viscosity grade is to be used.

Only way to achieve that 70 PSI at 6,000 RPM spec for that specific engine is to have an operating viscosity that results in meeting that operational point. The pressure measurement at the location of the sensor directly correlates to the oil viscosity. What oil viscosity does Ferrari spec for that engine, and does that oil pressure spec at 6,000 RPM also call out an oil temperature?

Blanket recommendations are useless. Your choice is application dependent in your car the way you drive it.

Making a statement that makes it sound like it would be OK to run a thinner oil then recommended for track or stressed condition use because the oil temps will be lower is actually a bad blanket statement.

 

[tired]

OP, just curious what the owner's manual says? I'm sure the specification has been superseded many times over by now.

Can you post some pictures of this gem??

You have a vintage Ferrari and you are worried about the price of a few quarts of oil?

I agree! I would just run the Red Line and not think about it!

The Baldwin and UFI were are all I used when I had a 308GTS

I love the 308! Remember Christie Brinkley in Vacation? I think Tom Selleck drove it in Magnum PI too. Just an ultra classic car. Must have been hard to see it go.

Out of curiosity what’s a good ZDDP number for a flat tappet car?

I think all of these options being discussed will have PLENTY of phosphorus for your car.

 

[papang]

I have redline 5w30 with a can of bg moa in my impreza right now, sees rev limiter every day and runs perfect, also had very good results with motul 300v in my boosted integra, (its rated for 5k miles/6 months under street use), gonna try 0w40 on the powerboost soon and will update everyone in the post I made.

 

[f355spider]

OP, just curious what the owner's manual says? I'm sure the specification has been superseded many times over by now.

I believe the official Ferrari North American dealer network uses Pennzoil Platinum Racing 5w-40, same as they use for all the newer V8s. I also believe many independent Ferrari shops don't buy into that and use something in a 50 weight.

Testing my memory, but I think the original owner's manual recommended an Agip 10w-50 semi synthetic for V8 cars from the 1970s, to the mid 1980s. By the late 80s they started recommending 10w-40 and later 5w-40 full synthetic oils.

 

[chris719]

There is no summer / winter or slightly higher / lower HTHS. The serious approvals that one of the oils covers and the other doesn't—says it all. They are very different oils in terms of base oils and additive package. The good think is that one is not that expensive than the other which is the case with Mobil 1 vs Red Line.

Also you can see that both Red Line 10W-50 and 10W-40 are ACEA A3/B4 oils. For some reason Red Line recommends the 10W-40 for 1985 Ferrari Mondial Quattrovalvole. However 10 qts of Red Line will cost the OP $200 shipped and the Mobil 1 FS Euro 5W-50 will cost him about $80 with free shipping on eBay.

https://www.redlineoil.com/10w50-motor-oil

https://www.redlineoil.com/10w40-motor-oil

The datasheet plainly says the HTHS is higher and it doesn’t have approvals because no 15W would get an approval but it clearly has the same package as the FS Euro oils. Sorry but you’re just wrong.

 

[Japanese]

but it clearly has the same package as the FS Euro oils. Sorry but you’re just wrong.

How do we know that? And if it's true—why the 15W-50 is part of the M1 vanilla oils and not of the Euro oils?
Look at the Mobil website and see how different oils are grouped.

 

[chris719]

How do we know that? And if it's true—why the 15W-50 is part of the M1 vanilla oils and not of the Euro oils?
Look at the Mobil website and see how different oils are grouped.

Because it has full saps euro levels of additives, plus extra ZDDP. Look at voa of the SP version. It is very clearly the FS Infineum package with some extra ZDDP, minor variant if anything. In other markets it has ACEA A3/B3 but with same PDS numbers also. It has no approvals because it’s targeting older cars and track usage.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…

 

[chris719]

The properties of viscosity hasn't changed ... they never will. A lower viscosity might reduce the oil temperature slightly, but it still could not provide enough film thickness to fully protect moving parts. Engines shouldn't have to fully rely on the sacrificial AF/AW tribofilm. Cooler oil doesn't mean less wear if the viscosity still isn't enough to keep parts from rubbing too much, it just means cooler oil.

What does give less wear is increased film thickness, all other factors held constant. If that wasn't the case, high performance engine makers wouldn't be putting thicker oil in the engines (like the Ford Boss, GT350, GT500 and regular Coyote Track Pack cars, etc) and instead just recommend they all use xW-20. Obviously Ford Performance says use a higher viscosity in applications like track use because even if the oil temperature runs hotter vs a thinner oil, the temperature increase does not negate the added wear protection the oil gives.

Post in thread 'High oil temps in 2023 f150 powerboost should I move to 0w40?'

Tuesday at 5:40 AM

One thing that should be realized is that thicker oil results in a thicker film thickness, which means the shear rate and associated temp rise factor from the shear rate is lower in the oil film. That helps offsets the temp rise from the temp rise factot from the thicker viscosity itself. So the resulting temp rise isn't enough to negate the advantage of the thicker film thickness.

• ZeeOSix

• 

Post in thread 'High oil temps in 2023 f150 powerboost should I move to 0w40?'

Tuesday at 2:26 PM

In my small engines going from 30wt to a 50wt appears to make them run a few degrees hotter. Not enough of a difference to make a difference.
If my pressure washer runs 270f with 30wt and 280f with 50wt, I definitely want that 50wt in there.

Here's test data showing the oil temperature in a journal bearing with 0W-20 and 0W-30 at different RPM. At 4000 RPM the temperature rise is only 1.5 deg C (2.7 deg F). It's not as much as some people seem to think it would be. As the graph shows, the temperature rise would be lower at lower RPM ... not many people are cruising around...

• ZeeOSix

• 
• 
• 

Only way to achieve that 70 PSI at 6,000 RPM spec for that specific engine is to have an operating viscosity that results in meeting that operational point. The pressure measurement at the location of the sensor directly correlates to the oil viscosity. What oil viscosity does Ferrari spec for that engine, and does that oil pressure spec at 6,000 RPM also call out an oil temperature?


Making a statement that makes it sound like it would be OK to run a thinner oil then recommended for track or stressed condition use because the oil temps will be lower is actually a bad blanket statement.

Can you imagine this guy being your doctor? Yikes.

 

[mechengineer60]

The properties of viscosity hasn't changed ... they never will. A lower viscosity might reduce the oil temperature slightly, but it still could not provide enough film thickness to fully protect moving parts. Engines shouldn't have to fully rely on the sacrificial AF/AW tribofilm. Cooler oil doesn't mean less wear if the viscosity still isn't enough to keep parts from rubbing too much, it just means cooler oil.

What does give less wear is increased film thickness, all other factors held constant. If that wasn't the case, high performance engine makers wouldn't be putting thicker oil in the engines (like the Ford Boss, GT350, GT500 and regular Coyote Track Pack cars, etc) and instead just recommend they all use xW-20. Obviously Ford Performance says use a higher viscosity in applications like track use because even if the oil temperature runs hotter vs a thinner oil, the temperature increase does not negate the added wear protection the oil gives.

Post in thread 'High oil temps in 2023 f150 powerboost should I move to 0w40?'

Tuesday at 5:40 AM

One thing that should be realized is that thicker oil results in a thicker film thickness, which means the shear rate and associated temp rise factor from the shear rate is lower in the oil film. That helps offsets the temp rise from the temp rise factot from the thicker viscosity itself. So the resulting temp rise isn't enough to negate the advantage of the thicker film thickness.

• ZeeOSix

• 

Post in thread 'High oil temps in 2023 f150 powerboost should I move to 0w40?'

Tuesday at 2:26 PM

In my small engines going from 30wt to a 50wt appears to make them run a few degrees hotter. Not enough of a difference to make a difference.
If my pressure washer runs 270f with 30wt and 280f with 50wt, I definitely want that 50wt in there.

Here's test data showing the oil temperature in a journal bearing with 0W-20 and 0W-30 at different RPM. At 4000 RPM the temperature rise is only 1.5 deg C (2.7 deg F). It's not as much as some people seem to think it would be. As the graph shows, the temperature rise would be lower at lower RPM ... not many people are cruising around...

• ZeeOSix

• 
• 
• 

Only way to achieve that 70 PSI at 6,000 RPM spec for that specific engine is to have an operating viscosity that results in meeting that operational point. The pressure measurement at the location of the sensor directly correlates to the oil viscosity. What oil viscosity does Ferrari spec for that engine, and does that oil pressure spec at 6,000 RPM also call out an oil temperature?


Making a statement that makes it sound like it would be OK to run a thinner oil then recommended for track or stressed condition use because the oil temps will be lower is actually a bad blanket statement.

Your logic seems to be its all about thickness of the oil/covering surface/viscosity that causes wear. But what we have today is thinner oils that have higher protection factors. Oil pressure is just a proxy for viscosity, it may well be that the ferrari could achieve the same standard of protection at a smaller psi/viscosity modern oil as a higher viscosity oil from 40 years ago.

 

[AEHaas]

In the 1970's a friend of my father was a chemist for Shell. This is when I got started with my interest in motor oil as he educated me. The muscle cars at the time used 10W-40 and 20W-50 oils. I found they almost immediately thinned to a 10 or 20 grade oil in use. The use of "thinner" grade oil in high HP engines is nothing new and seems to have been working fine for half a century.

ali

 

[4wd]

In the 1970's a friend of my father was a chemist for Shell. This is when I got started with my interest in motor oil as he educated me. The muscle cars at the time used 10W-40 and 20W-50 oils. I found they almost immediately thinned to a 10 or 20 grade oil in use. The use of "thinner" grade oil in high HP engines is nothing new and seems to have been working fine for half a century.

ali

 

[ZeeOSix]

Your logic seems to be its all about thickness of the oil/covering surface/viscosity that causes wear. But what we have today is thinner oils that have higher protection factors. Oil pressure is just a proxy for viscosity, it may well be that the ferrari could achieve the same standard of protection at a smaller psi/viscosity modern oil as a higher viscosity oil from 40 years ago.

Viscosity is the main factor in keeping moving parts separated and from rubbing on each other and causing wear. Viscosity has always been the backbone of Trbology ever since hydrodynamic lubrication was fully understood 120 years ago by Renolds.

The Stribeck Curve has a viscosiy factor involved. When just the viscosity is increased (other factors held constant) the operating points on the Stribeck Curve shift to the right, which means film thickness increases between moving parts and wear decreases. Sure, the AF/AW additives are better now, but the sacrificial tribofilm is only useful when the film thickness fails to give adequate parts separation. And the tribofilm can only do so much, so viscosity is (should be) the main wear mitigating factor. With all factors involved held constant, more HTHS viscosiy gives more film thickness and more wear protection.

Ferrari doesn't spec thin oil because they know owners may push them hard. Same with Ford, GM, Dodge, etc that make high HP performance cars. But some believe they can achieve the same level of engine protection by going two grades lower and still use the car hard because oil temps might be lower. If that was the case, all high HP engines (most of which already have an oil cooler) would be running xW-20 or less.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The use of "thinner" grade oil in high HP engines is nothing new and seems to have been working fine for half a century.

Then why doesn't Ford, GM, Dodge etc spec thin oil in their high HP engines today with all the greatly formulated oils of today. Viscosity can never be fully replaced by AF/AW additives.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The muscle cars at the time used 10W-40 and 20W-50 oils. I found they almost immediately thinned to a 10 or 20 grade oil in use.

And I'd bet those engines didn't last like the engines of today that are running the thicker oils they are specified for. Put some xW-8 or xW-20 grade in them and they will wear faster too. You saw that when you tried that Redline 0w5 in your turboed SUV and saw the UOA with not many miles on the oil.

 

[wings&wheels]

IMO, you will be fine with either of the two quality oils you mention. Redline and Mobil1 15w50 are the only oils for our vintage fleet in my signature with the older P'cars getting Redline 10w50/60 and the Triumph and past British cars and vintage BMW's getting the M1 15w50.

I am wary of current spec oils in vintage performance cars and obviously choose quality oils that I feel are appropriate to the cars with a more period package; Zn/Ph, etc. Then again, I am a glorified accountant, so take my technical opinions in that light.

There ought to be a BITOG rule that when someone asks a question related to a vintage Ferrari or similar, a picture is mandatory.

 

[OVERKILL]

In the 1970's a friend of my father was a chemist for Shell. This is when I got started with my interest in motor oil as he educated me. The muscle cars at the time used 10W-40 and 20W-50 oils. I found they almost immediately thinned to a 10 or 20 grade oil in use.

How were you determining an oil thinned to a "10 grade" given that 20 was the bottom of J300 at the time? (and 10 still doesn't exist, but anyway).

 

[f355spider]

Is Baldwin good? Before I exclusively used UFI, and I still will for the Mondial. However, for my Testarossa I have to find an alternative as UFI stopped producing TR oil filters. Baldwin does make one that will fit the TR. This makes me a little nervous because the only engine that I’ve ever lost in my life was due to a faulty oil filter.

Well I spoke too soon. There are active threads on the FerrariChat forum I saw this morning about the UFI for the 308/328/Mondial QV application having changed. It has a black can with white lettering, instead of white with blue lettering. It is now made in China. The bigger concern is the baseplate now has only four holes, where it previously had 8 holes.

The concern is that the last time they changed the base plate was back in 2001. Part of the change was a thinner groove for the rubber gasket, and they went from a flat gasket to an o-ring. Immediately there were reports of the gaskets not holding and oil spraying out under pressure creating a huge mess. A friend had it happen to his 328GTS while getting on oil service. UFI ended up have a big recall over this, as did Ferrari North America. UFI changed the baseplate back to the original version.

This new Chinese made filter still has the flat type gasket...but I would still be dubious.
I wouldn't use the new black UFI filter until it has been in service for at least a year...

The Baldwin B253 is the safer bet right now, and they are only $20. The UFI has the "Ferrari Tax" and is around $75. I am having the two year service performed on my 430 Scuderia and I believe they charge $90 or $100 for the Purflux filter. I see UFI TR filters available on Ricambi America...$636.47 LOLOLOL!
https://www.ricambiamerica.com/124228-filter-oil-testarossa.html

 

[ZeeOSix]

The use of "thinner" grade oil in high HP engines is nothing new and seems to have been working fine for half a century.

Below are results from an engine wear study showing how the oil viscosity impacted the piston top ring wear. I'd expect a xW-20 to be somewhere between the 16 and 30 grades. The wear rate difference is pretty large during some operational conditions. Test was done at the Southwest Research Institute using an irradiated top ring and a radioactive tracer detector to measure wear rate in an actual running engine under different load conditions. Based on this, I'd say using lower viscosity in any high HP engine would be causing more wear at least in the piston rings. Piston rings live in a pretty harsh environment and are one of the first engine components that can suffer from excessive wear and deposits. Journal bearings are probably next in terms of wear since they are soft and somewhat sacrificial if inadequate viscosity is used for the operating conditions.

 

[ZeeOSix]

The concern is that the last time they changed the base plate was back in 2001. Part of the change was a thinner groove for the rubber gasket, and they went from a flat gasket to an o-ring.

If a P-style gasket oil filter is not tightened down enough to make the can basically bottom out on the filter seat, the chances of the gasket blowing out is much higher. Ref post in oil filter forum - LINK