Redline Oil

[DockHoliday]

John - The oil requirements/recommendations are discussed in 3 seperate chapters in two seperate manuals. Also, most of the info pertains to both NA, Turbo, Petrol, and Diesel engines, which I find odd.

Visocity bar graph #1 (in the warranty and service manual) shows only 5W30 and 10W30. The Viscosity bar graph #2 (owners manual) indicates that 0W30, 0W40, 5W30, and 5W40 could be used year round. Oddly, the 5W30 10W30 bars do not go as high in temp as the 0W oils.

The following are some of the statements in the doc (in no particular order):

1) Volvo fully synthetic engine oil is recommended for cars with turbocharged petrol engines.
2) Castrol fully synthetic engine oil is recommended for cars with turbocharged petrol engines.
3) Volvo recommends Castrol oil products.
4) Oil Quality: ACEA A1, API SL,SL/CF, SL Energy Conserving.
5) Note: Oils with a viscosity of 0W30 and 0W40 must fulfil the requirements of A3. (perhaps this explains the bar graph anomoly of 0W vs 10W oils)
5) Operation In Hot Climates: When temps exceed 86F, Volvo recommends that you use a heavier weight oil, such as 10W30.
7) Extemem Engine Operation: Synthetic oils meeting 10W30 and complying with oil quality requirements are recommended for driving in areas of sustained temp extremes (hot or cold), when towing a trailer over long distances, and for prolonged driving in mounainous area.

Recommended OCI is 7,500 miles (1st 4 are free).


Wadoyathink?

[ January 03, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: DockHoliday ]

 

[Patman]

Anyone planning to run Redline on a higher mileage engine (especially one run on dino previously) should definitely do an Auto-rx treatment first, that way their first two intervals with Redline don't end up with the oil working so hard to clean things up. It's better that Redline starts with a nice clean slate.

 

[Primus]

Undoubtedly a good cleaning action may add some percentage of metals to UOA, but only partly (think mainly from crevices and possibly from carter itself). But this action is proper not only to ester oils. At the same time, changing a synthetic or semi-synthetic oil every 6-8.000 km it's hardly possible to gather deposits in the engine provided the engine does not have some mechanical problems and its other components work well.

I am afraid that higher wear numbers for ester oils come from higher corrosive/oxidative wear. It is noticed that mineral and semi-synthetic oils usually exibit lower corrosivity then fully synthetic oils, especially for relatively short intervals 7.000-9.000 km. Then the difference in corrosive wear starts to decrease and to 15.000 km synthetic oils would have only slightly worse or equal numbers with mineral or semi-synthetic oils.

If to compare synthetic oils, according to tests run by our car magazine ester based oils showed considerably higher corrosivity then oils formulated mainly with PAO. To mesure weight loss of metal plates due to corrosion at 9.000 and 15.000 km it was used high temperature oxidation test (1 hour is considered as about 3.000 km). In the same table you will find shear stability. Unfortunately the procedure was not decribed: I could find only that they applied a higher temperature then 100 C (possible they used the same CEC L-14-A-93 with over 100 C and over 30 cycles).

...................................... Corrosion, g ........... Shear stability, %
Motul 300V 5W-30 ............. 7,0 ... 17,8 ............ - 9,0 ... - 3,0
Motul 8100 0W-40 ...................... 16,0 ....................... - 43,3
Shell Helix Ultra 0W-40 .................. 1,8 ....................... - 26,9
Mobil1 0W-40 ............................. 12,0 ...................... - 32,6
Castrol RS 0W-40 ......................... 7,0 ....................... - 49,5
Liqui Moly Synth. 5W-40 ................ 7,1 ....................... - 23,1
Chevron Delo-400 5W-40 ............. 10,0 ....................... - 40,0
Shell Helix Plus 10W-40 ....... 0,1 .... 8,2 .......... - 14,0 ... - 24,0
Castrol GTX5 10W-40 ......... 0,7 .... 3,3 .......... - 11,0 ... - 28,0
BP Visco 3000 10W-40 ........ 0,3 .... 6,0 ........... + 7,2 .... - 4,0
Valvoline Dura Blend ........... 3,7 ... 10,5 .......... - 25,0 ... - 27,0
Esso Ultra 10W-40 ............. 3,2 ... 11,0 .......... - 24,0 ... - 13,0
Castrol GTD 10W-40 ........... 2,0 .... 9,0 .......... - 10,0 ... - 29,0
Shell Helix Super 10W-40 .... 3,2 ... 12,0 .......... - 18,0 ... - 13,0
Liqui Moly Tour. 10W-40 ..... 5,6 ... 19,0 .......... + 12,0 ... + 41,0

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

---

I am afraid that higher wear numbers for ester oils come from higher corrosive/oxidative wear. It is noticed that mineral and semi-synthetic oils usually exibit lower corrosivity then fully synthetic oils, especially for relatively short intervals 7.000-9.000 km. Then the difference in corrosive wear starts to decrease and to 15.000 km synthetic oils would have only slightly worse or equal numbers with mineral or semi-synthetic oils.

---

If that were the case then Delvac 1 should have all kinds of problems in diesels.

 

[sprintman]

I can't add much to this except my run of RL 5W30 in our Outback became dirty much quicker than I expected, and that was straight after running Delvac 1 and Auto-Rx. I believe there is something to the ester removing wear metals and UOA trending would be more important with RL (and NEO) than most other oils IMO. Trouble is most only do a single UOA and move on to something else (guilty your honour). Still I only have too look at Tyrolkids 5W40 UOA to know RL is 'one of the best' oils period!

 

[Primus]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:

quote:

---

I am afraid that higher wear numbers for ester oils come from higher corrosive/oxidative wear. It is noticed that mineral and semi-synthetic oils usually exibit lower corrosivity then fully synthetic oils, especially for relatively short intervals 7.000-9.000 km. Then the difference in corrosive wear starts to decrease and to 15.000 km synthetic oils would have only slightly worse or equal numbers with mineral or semi-synthetic oils.

---

If that were the case then Delvac 1 should have all kinds of problems in diesels.

---

Delvac 1 is not an ester based oil, it is mainly PAO. Over this, Delvac 1 chemistry is oriented for diesel engine and therefore should foresee more robust additive package to fight corrosion. That's probably why it does not have these kinds of problems.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Robbie, You beat me to it. I think a lot of people fail to understand the implications of past wear metal diplacement. Seeing how RL has an infinty for metal you realy have to give it more then one change to displace all of the previous wear metal and to establish itself. As the esters in RL losen any varnish that has been holding old wear metal this is going to continue. I belive that this is why high milage engines seem to take 3 or more changes with RL before they really begin to trend down.

I do not think people really understand how powerful the cleaning action is with RL's ester's and concentrated additive package!

Molakules post hits the nail square on the head!

 

[TooSlick]

As I understand it, Redline and the Synergyn 0w-20 are about 30% PE and 70% PAO. Amsoil is about 15% PE and 85% PAO ...I'm not sure about the Mobil 1 supersyn or GC, 0w-30, but the percentages of PAO and polyolester are probably close to what Amsoil is using.
It would not be desirable to made any oil using 100% polyol-ester basestocks, for a number of technical reasons, not the least of which is price. Jet turbine oils are made from less expensive, very low viscosity PE's and run about $10.00/qt. A high molecular weight, PE based engine oil would be even more expensive ....

True ester based oils like Motul use the much less expensive diester (dibasic acid ester) basestocks. Amsoil was made from 100% diesters from 1972 to about 1980 or so ....

Tooslick

[ February 15, 2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: rugerman1 ]

 

[TurboFrog]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:

True ester based oils like Motul use the much less expensive diester (dibasic acid ester) basestocks. Amsoil was made from 100% diesters from 1972 to about 1980 or so ....

---

Please look at this Austrailian MOTUL site. They are saying that they have been using Complex Ester base stock oil since 1996.

MolaKule,
Can you explain us what complex ester is

?

 

[Motorbike]

A company in the business of making Esters states that Polyol's have better high temp stability but Diesters generally have low pour points, excellent lubricity and thermal stability and disperse soot and particles well.

I think POE's are better suited for Turbine Engines and Diester /PAO formulations make for a better PCMO generally .

Has anyone ever seen the result of the ASTM D-130 corrosion test for Redline motor oils ? I would be interested in seeing this and comparing to other oils .

BTW , it has been posted that both Amsoil and Mobil uses the TMP " PE " type esters .

[ January 05, 2004, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

 

[Primus]

Corrosive wear may give up to 30 % to total wear number and it would be unwise not to take this fact into consideration. If you look at tests figures you will see that even within synthetic oil group the difference in corrosive wear may reach around 230 %.

Yes, Motul 300V showed the best shear stability that should help to reduce mechanical wear and this is very important for racing, but what is corrosive wear ? I don't think this property would contribute to improvement of total wear number in UOA from a "stop and go" car.

If it happens with Motul, why not with RL too ?

 

[Jay]

This is an interesting discussion. If RedLine is doing more cleaning of "useless metal molecules" why is it that we see higher soft metals and not higher iron? It seems to me there would be more iron than soft metals cleaned and that iron would be higher.

I can understand how soft metals would be attacked from an overactive additive package.

 

[TooSlick]

Something in the Redline chemistry reacts with the softer lead overlays used by Honda/Acura. I think the reaction with the bronze and copper parts is more of an oxide layer being formed and is not necessarily wear in the conventional sense. Levels of Copper and Tin do stabilize after several changes with Redline.

Interestingly enough, Toyota/Lexus and VW/Audi bearings do not seem to be affected at all by Redline and these motors show low levels of lead. I know that VW/Audi use a Pb/Ni type of overlay material, which may be a bit more corrosion resistant than the softer Honda bearings ....

I'm not sure the PE basestock has much to do with any of this ...I think it's the 500+ ppm of MoDTC that reacts with the bearings. MoDTC is actually converted to MoS2 in performing its' function, which could explain this. The borate based FM's don't seem to have the same effect on bearings, for reasons I don't fully understand.

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:
-*-*...I think it's the 500+ ppm of MoDTC that reacts with the bearings. MoDTC is actually converted to MoS2 in performing its' function, which could explain this. The borate based FM's don't seem to have the same effect on bearings, for reasons I don't fully understand.

---

Now, that may be something... why it could I think it could the...> "Structure" be converted to something with the LEAD
PbMoO4 right ie Wulfenite... so that may in my VERY limited understanding of things explain it, no?

Please forgive my ignorant self if I have no clue and am just talking, because I forgot about 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of everything in Science.Advanced Physical Science.Chemistry.Geology.Etc. : from my HighSchool Days.

Iron, "Fe" would not want to combine into a STRUCTURE with MOLY unless it was UNDER SEVERE CONDITIONS = Oxidation usually to a Trioxide & Molybdates... I think, but it-will-could-likes to share bonds with the "O" and likes to be near chrome but sandwiched between sulfur atoms allowing an easier horizontal sheering... anyway IT does and will and often hits on LEAD hence maybe the PbMoO4.... MAYBE or did I do what E-i-en-stein did and just Invent something from nothing.

 

[Motorbike]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:

I'm not sure the PE basestock has much to do with any of this ...I think it's the 500+ ppm of MoDTC that reacts with the bearings. MoDTC is actually converted to MoS2 in performing its' function, which could explain this. The borate based FM's don't seem to have the same effect on bearings, for reasons I don't fully understand.

---

I don't think it is Redlines basestock either after reading this at the RT Vanderbilt site

http://www.rtvanderbilt.com/petro_5.htm

The Organo Molybedenum they offer varies in in how much they contribute to copper corrosion as one reads down the list .

It's also interesting that the long haul diesel oils both dino and synthetic with the absolute toughest ACEA ratings are molyless

[ January 05, 2004, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Motorbike:

*-*-*-*-
It's also interesting that the long haul diesel oils both dino and synthetic with the absolute toughest ACEA ratings are molyless

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What IYO is a LONG haul Diesel and a LOng Haul Gasoline Dino / Syn oil?
What are the Toughest ACEA ratings you refer to?

 

[buster]

quote:

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Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil. The slightly higher wear metal
seen in some tests are the result of the additive package reacting
with surface oxides when first introduced into an engine, these tend
to taper off in successive tests. These tests can be somewhat
misleading and can lead to false conclusions. The polyol ester used
doesn't have an attraction for moisture, our motor oils offer very
good corrosion protection.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

---

This is from awhile ago but I thought I'd post it anyway. I wrote to RL awhile back.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Some of the best trophy UOA on this site are from Redline oils! SOme of the worst UOA also seem to be with Redline oils! Imports especialy Toyota's do great on Redline oils! GM products on the other hand do horrable on Redline oils for the most part. Their are exceptions but this is the norm. You also have the cleaning aspect of the initial fill of Redline. It is generaly recomended that you not even do a UOA of Redline in an engine until you done at least 3 OCI in a row with Redline!

 

[Bryanccfshr]

What kind of time and mileage are people generally using Redline oils for?

It is a top tier product but at what level of use is it neccesary? 2 or 3 oci's is a long long time for some of us.

 

[buster]

I havn't seen RL go past 10k miles confidently. TBN has been 0 a few times. While Terry verfies the user that it's ok, I'm not comfortable with that. IMHO, Redline is an oil for those that abuse or race their cars.