Is there a fundamental problem with the formulation of Redline oils? In many areas Redline has a good reputation, but I havn't seen a really good UOA for any Redline product. There doesn't seem to be any advantage for extended drain intervals or wear reduction. The motor oils even seem to exhibit more wear than a dino oil. Is the polyol ester base stocks simply not a suitable base for lubrication in an automotive application? I am NOT bashing Redline products, just trying the learn more about lubricating oils.
Redline Oil
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My car has a good UOA using Redline.
Please expound upon your statements.
What IYO is a GOOD UOA, and please feel free to post MOCK numbers. Also, what set of standards are
you using to judge an UOA as good or bad?
Also, please list IYO the advantages or reason for extended drains; WHY, are you seeking them?
Lastly, have you SEEN a UOA that has an properly running engine fed a steady diet of this oil over 20, 30 or 60K miles?
I'm not picking on you, it's more the board a little. Too many people are TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
quick to judge an oil or a group of oils and make blanket statements... I'm guilty as we all have been, an have some faults still, but my point is more of the fact that
Until you have seen many UOA's in the same engine or TYPE of engine and application, and then compared those numbers to another OIL, sometimes numbers are just subjective, and the person looking is biased because of their belief system.
I'm not defending per se RL or am I per se against RL, what I'm saying if first you have to have some ground to call a foundation, and that IMO may very well be watching YOUR own UOA's for a period of time, taking in consideration application and problems encountered (HISTORY) etc. as well as the oil itself.
The oil I am running for instance when my truck was new, it never saw. Then when I figured it was BROKE-IN, I changed. Used almost 100.00% the same oil except in EE situations. When my truck was newer, Then: NUMBERS WERE almost around ZERO to 2 or 3 maybe 8 PPM at 15K 20K 30K+
Then I encountered a long list of problems I still am a little in now.... for about 100K.
These problems raised my PPM level, and anyone looking at them without knowing the history will come to a different analysis of those numbers...
BUT I had a base... I knew what it did, and how it acted to some degree. Therefore I can say with certain reflection that my engine now LOOKS a lot worse than before... will it come back ??? I donno... maybe this has to do with the fact that I stopped using MOLY as an experiment.... I'll see when I add it back in after my midway experiment is complete.
Then we have to determine IYO what BETTER means, because to me it may mean something else.
quite frankly i dont think people use redline in its correct application or viscosity most of the time.
Terry Dyson is an oil expert, he is a big RL guy. 99.999% of us no very little about this stuff. From what I've learned is that RL is an incredibly well built oil and is the best for high performance. What we have learned is that what we see in UOA's isn's always wear with RL. When you look at all the top racing oils, they all have a lot of ZDDP and Moly. RL has this and more POE basestock then any other street oil on the market, by far.
Patman
Staff member
Check out this UOA:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000340
Easily one of the best UOAs ever seen, and in a Toyota sludge monster V6 no less! Definite proof of the quality of Redline oil!!
Can you elaborate on that comment? I am thinking if switching to RL, and in doing so, I am wondering which viscosity to use. 5W30, 10W30, or 5W40. My car is a Volvo S60R (2.5 Litre, 5 cyl, turbo, 300HP, so I need a good A3 oil that can handle both heat and cold.
[ January 01, 2004, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: DockHoliday ]
DocHoliday, The Redline 5W40 seems to be Redline unadvertised gem! The tech. specs are out of this world and the wear numbers have been good. So far I think the coldest it has been so far in Michigan is 14F-17F wich is warm for this time of year. It has had no cold start issues at all.
What spec does you car call for. I know Pablo is a Volvo man and he runs a lot of synthetic 20W50 in his cars I belive.
What spec does you car call for. I know Pablo is a Volvo man and he runs a lot of synthetic 20W50 in his cars I belive.
Patman
Staff member
I agree too. I'm very guilty of sometimes letting my dislike of certain oils cloud my judgement, when I should try and look at things more objectively. I should make that my New Year's resolution on here.
MolaKule
Staff member
I don't think so, or major engine failures would have arisen and the word would have spread like wildfire. When Amsoil abandoned the all ester route for it's oils in favor of less costly majority PAO's with minority esters, Redline and NEO took up the gauntlet to keep majority ester fluids in the marketplace.
Here is what I think (my tribological theory) is happening and why you see wear metal PPM's rise with Redline use:
The wear metal molecules from rings and liners are transferred to the surface of the ring and liner and are also deposited in the engine walls and crevices. In other words, the metals are there, just not doing any useful work. Useless Metal Molecules Patman take note!
The same can be said for bearings and journals. The copper, tin, lead, aluminum and other bearing molecular components are deposited on the surfaces.
Enter Redline high polyol ester oils. The ester molecule, being highly polar, wants to get to the surface and deposit it's own molecular layer. In doing so, it displaces the metal molecules and places them into solution, so the UOA is seeing scavenged metal molecules. So instead of wear metal molecules sticking to surfaces, they are displaced or placed into solution.
The ester fluid is also bringing the additive pack to the surfaces to provide FW and AW functionality, further displacing the random wear particles.
Could someone post the tech specs?
Robbie Alexander,
I don't see something strange in Ant's question given number of UOAs where RL results are quite mediocre. It could be that the main reason was engines themselves, but, nevertheless, in comparison with many other UOAs presented here those of RL are far from to be impressive.
As for "too quick to judge", 1). Ant's post does not contain the word "bad", 2). unfortunately not everybody can fully follow your fundamental approach to UAO. We are here to get answers to interesting questions and share our knowledges, so it would be grate if we could abstain from sticking labels and playing profs.
I don't see something strange in Ant's question given number of UOAs where RL results are quite mediocre. It could be that the main reason was engines themselves, but, nevertheless, in comparison with many other UOAs presented here those of RL are far from to be impressive.
As for "too quick to judge", 1). Ant's post does not contain the word "bad", 2). unfortunately not everybody can fully follow your fundamental approach to UAO. We are here to get answers to interesting questions and share our knowledges, so it would be grate if we could abstain from sticking labels and playing profs.
I understand. I lack the skills necessary to be tactful sometimes and also I lack the skills to express in words what everyone in general can understand.
For everyone to understand, please read about 10 times MolaKules post in this thread. He hit's it SQUARE as far as my understanding. When You can begin to grasp this you can also begin to see how additives fight for their place on the metal surfaces, and may also begin to see how or why, a problem can be resolved and there still tracks wear for some time to come. IMO, I don't think ALL wear is at par with all other wear. In other words, I think some wear is PRE-wear and some is POST-wear... If you can understand what I'm saying and see what MolaKule is saying, I think a lot of eyes including mine will begin to open wider and grasp a glimmer of light of understanding.
"Too many people are TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO quick to judge an oil or a group of oils and make blanket statements"...I'm not defending per se RL or am I per se against RL, what I'm saying if first you have to have some ground to call a foundation. Hint READ MolaKules post again!
I'm not picking on you, it's more the board a little.
And AGAIN, anyone:
What IYO is a GOOD UOA?
Please feel free to post MOCK numbers.
Also, what set of standards are you using to judge an UOA as good or bad?
Also, please list IYO the advantages or reason for extended drains; WHY, are you seeking them?
Does anyone KNOW why they do what they do with their oil?
Good or poor, is there a method to the madness>?
Again, have you SEEN a UOA that has an properly running engine fed a steady diet of this oil over 20, 30 or 60K miles? Or ANY oil for that period of time.. In fact it would be ideal for anyone to watch about 120K's worth of miles maybe 200K's worth of miles and see problems as they develop to compare how UOA's can change &/or maintain a constant.
have you SEEN a UOA that has an properly running engine fed a steady diet of this oil over 20, 30 or 60K miles?
I used to have a 1979 ford with a 300ci 6 cyl. I purchased it new, for first 10,000 miles I used petro. The oil and filter were changed at the first 250 miles then 750 miles then at 2,000 miles on a regular basis. Then to 5w/20 M1 with 1 year changes which was 8,000 to 12,000 miles max then M1 was 10w/30 ,then to Ams 10w/40 untill I sold it to my friend with 112,000 miles. Then Redline 10w/30 was used with a once a year oil changes 6,000 mile oil filter changes using Fram or what ever ? the truck got beat as it was his company truck driven by others. Finally he traded the truck to his Alfa mechanic at over 350,000 miles . Still passing smog and the oil pressure was within specs on a stuart warner mechanical gauge. No brag just fact! also the Ford engine lasts and lasts.Imo Redline oil seems to work very well.
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