Good point. I didn't think "too much" seal swell was an issue. Where would it go?
The early PAO's (eg. M-1) had NO Esters and PAO's cause seal SHRINKAGE. Hence, leaks all over the place. That's why they use some ester in their formula (as little as possible to save cost I'm sure). But, I'm not sure if you can have "too much" ester and "too much" seal swell...
Red Line and seal swell
- Thread starter Dr. T
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quote:I think you could have too much if it caused the seal to become too soft, or swell out of spec.
Originally posted by Dr. T: Good point. I didn't think "too much" seal swell was an issue. Where would it go? The early PAO's (eg. M-1) had NO Esters and PAO's cause seal SHRINKAGE. Hence, leaks all over the place. That's why they use some ester in their formula (as little as possible to save cost I'm sure). But, I'm not sure if you can have "too much" ester and "too much" seal swell...
quote:According to MoleKule in this post, Mobil and Red Line both use polyol esters. He's stated in other posts that Mobil developed new PAOs and PEs for the SuperSyn formula.
Originally posted by Terry: It is my understanding that Redline is mostly POE based, while Delvac 1 has has a small amount as does some of Amsoil formulations. The rest do not use POE as a base oil including super syn.
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quote:I agree. I was justy clarifying the issue because you'd posted that Mobil 1 didn't use any PE.
Originally posted by Terry: The key is the type , quality, and level of PE esters. No one is using as much as Redline as a base. Hopefully Molekule can clarify.
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I suspect what MK is going to tell us is that Red Line uses a large percentage of PEs and a small percentage of PAOs in their base oil blend, while Mobil uses a large percentage of PAOs and a small percentage of PEs in their base oil blend.[QUOTE]Originally posted by Terry:
[QB] The key is the type , quality, and level of PE esters. No one is using as much as Redline as a base.
I have been using RedLine over a year, no leaks, and I was told by a RedLine guy that it was 100% POE. And certainly it was my understanding that RedLine was great and the best and all that, though NEO, Amsoil, Royal Purple, and a few others are 'cut from the same cloth'
I'll be posting test results from analyses soon.
Regards!
Rob
A lot of watercooled VW folks swear by the Redline MTL gear oil for their trannies but leakage results in older trannys from the shaft seals. New seals eliminate it though.
"it was my understanding that Red Line was great and the best and all that, though NEO, Amsoil, Royal Purple, and a few others are 'cut from the same cloth'"
NEO is mostly dibasic ester, not quite as tough as polyol.
Amsoil and Royal Purple are mostly PAO (like Mobil 1). RP might even have mineral oil blended into it.
I believe Synergen uses a great deal of some type of esters ... but I'm not sure which.
--- Bror Jace
I don't think I've seen this addressed on this forum anywhere, but if you use a POE based oil like Red Line, is there any chance you will get too much seal swell with leaks resulting?
I'm asking this because it seems that esters are added to PAO based oils (and to Group II in the case of the MaxLife type oils) in order to improve seal swell, so what happens when ALL the oil is ester?
Weren't early automotive synths like that, with viscosity and leak issues?
I recall MolaKule mentioning something about high ester content jet oils being incompatible with automotive engine seals, or seals in general, where the oil becomes a "consumable" much like fuel.
Patman
Staff member
I don't believe Redline's base oil is entirely polyol esters though. From what I understand they do mix in PAOs also. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that if it's base oil were entirely polyol esters, they'd have to charge $30 per quart for the stuff.
MolaKule
Staff member
OneQuart,
"I recall MolaKule mentioning something about high ester content jet oils being incompatible with automotive engine seals, or seals in general, where the oil becomes a "consumable" much like fuel."
The earlier jet oils which used the older dibasic acid esters (di-esters) did have seal compatibility problems with automotive engine oils, which is why jet engines used the graphite labyrinth seals. Modern turbines use a combination of Polyol Esters (POE's) of type Pentaerityritol (PE) and Di-Pentaerityritol esters with minor amounts of Trimethylpropane (TMP) ester.
Today's esters that are used in automotive base oils (and not as additives) are less aggressive toward seals.
There are a number of esters that are used for automotive oils:
1. Di-esters (almost 100%)- Neo
2. Redline 60% to 40% of Pentaerithritol (PE) and Di-Pentaerithyritol (DPE) and Trimethyl Propane TMP polyol esters, depending on formulation;
3. Amsoil - Mostly TMP with some PE, about 20-30%
depending on formulation.
4. Mobil - Trimethyl Ethane (TME) and TMP about 20-40% depending on formulation.
5. Synergen (Dyson) and RP - Diesters and TMP with some small amounts of PE.
I should add that most of these esters and ester combinations were developed for the jet turbine engine industry between 1960 and 1985 (data from Patent Disclosures). BTW, Exxon/Mobil and additive companies own most of the patents.
The only new POE of recent development (TME) was done by Mobil between 1997 and 2001.
In other words, most esters used in automotive oils are of the main class carboxylic esters with the two following subclasses;
1. Di-esters
[About 140 types of last count]
2. Polyol Esters (POE's)
a.) Trimethyl Propane (TMP)
b.) Trimethyl Ethane (TME)
c.) PentaErithyritol (PE)
d.) Di-PentaErithyritol (DPE)
The POE's are more thermally stable than are the di-esters, and the more POE's in a base oil, the more thermally and oxidative stable the PAO/ester base combination.
[ February 08, 2003, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
quote:I did a search and couldn't find such a post, though I did see posts by MK that indicate Red Line is a blend of esters and PAO. Hopefully, he'll see this thread and comment further. I was under the impression that Red Line was ALL ester based.
Originally posted by Terry: Molekule has posted the percentages of base oils in RL,Amsoil, and M1 syns here somewhere.
seal swell is old wives tail in trannys rubber when hot shrinks..
redline says there oils are 100% no petroleum
quote:Forgive me for my stupidity, but I want to make sure I'm understanding this right. I thought Amsoil had a higher content of esters then M1, but if I'm reading this right, both M1 and Amsoil are roughly 20% to 40% ester based??
1. Di-esters (almost 100%)- Neo 2. Redline 60% to 40% of Pentaerithritol (PE) and Di-Pentaerithyritol (DPE) and Trimethyl Propane TMP polyol esters, depending on formulation; 3. Amsoil - Mostly TMP with some PE, about 20-30% depending on formulation. 4. Mobil - Trimethyl Ethane (TME) and TMP about 20-40% depending on formulation. 5. Synergen (Dyson) and RP - Diesters and TMP with some small amounts of PE.
quote:MK, thanks for posting these numbers. I'd always thought Red Line was all ester, but based on some of your other posts (and now this one), I can see I was wrong. As for Mobil 1, it actually has more ester in it than I thought. What is your educated guess as to which grades of Mobil 1 have the most esters? The 0wXX grades?
Originally posted by MolaKule: There are a number of esters that are used for automotive oils: 1. Di-esters (almost 100%)- Neo 2. Redline 60% to 40% of Pentaerithritol (PE) and Di-Pentaerithyritol (DPE) and Trimethyl Propane TMP polyol esters, depending on formulation; 3. Amsoil - Mostly TMP with some PE, about 20-30% depending on formulation. 4. Mobil - Trimethyl Ethane (TME) and TMP about 20-40% depending on formulation. 5. Synergen (Dyson) and RP - Diesters and TMP with some small amounts of PE.
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