Real-time exposure of the challenges of EV use

[PandaBear]

It's a relatively minor thing to discharge quickly. The biggest issue is always going to be heat generated, and I wouldn't necessarily be that concerned with a good battery cooling system.

I didn't actually run it in that mode, but I looked at Ludicrous Plus mode when driving a Model S P100D loaner. It said that it would need to prepare the battery for it, which I believe involves heating it to allow for faster discharge. But that's also the case when prepping for Level 3 DC charging, where allowing navigation to select or know the charging destination gives the system time to prep it.

I am not sure how Tesla prep their cars for Ludicrous Plus mode. What I remember back in the days was there are electric motors we asked manufacturer to provide us that would bump the power output for 1/3 and it would be ok to do that for 8 seconds before it might cause problem (demagnetize). It is definitely some prep work in cooling and heating (keeping each component in its optimal temperature range) as well as flushing out some latent heat inside the cooling system (speed up cooling pump and fan and pre-cool or pre-heat all the coolant).

The limiting factor for the power discharge rate would likely be in the tire first, then batteries, then inverter and converters, then electric motors.

 

[JeffKeryk]

EVs have extraordinarily complex systems, and parts counts that rival ICE when you consider the actual parts in a battery.

Your claims are based upon the honeymoon stage still. Bearings will still fail. Cooling systems will still need service. Brake systems need service, rubber suspension parts will go bad, AC will leak in time, plastics degrade, solid state power electronics have limited life under load/voltage. Tires.

I just have to laugh at the concept that a few oil changes is that hard. Kind of like the fallacy of charging being exposed here. My HEV goes 14k miles per OCI per OLM. One 30 minute stint at a charger to get say 100-200 miles, is a total waste of time. 30 minutes at a gas station is six or more charging visits. And that’s at slower NJ stations that have an attendant. In 30 minutes of elapsed time at a gas station in my hybrid is 4000-5000 miles.

And I’ve paid my proper share of road tax, unlike scenarios where EV home charging doesn’t.

Let's look at your points...
Complexity can be looked at in various ways, but the parts that wear tend to be moving parts. All the other parts are pretty much in common.

All cars need service, but comparing the different parts (EV vs ICE) there is less for an EV. Brakes tend to last longer due to Regenerative braking. My car does recommend cleaning and lubing brake components in inclement areas. I do this with all my cars...

I never said oil changes were hard. Well, some cars have oil filters in rather difficult places, like our TSX.

In 16K miles I have spent 1/2 hour on Superchargers and that was to learn the experience far more than necessity. A gas car would be far longer.
With solar panels, my fuel costs approach zero which is huge with CA gas prices.
I have spent maybe $2 for 1 gallon of blue windshield washer fluid... I did rotate my tires which required special lift pucks.

I pay $175 per year on my CA annual registration road tax.

My point is, it depends on your use case.

 

[Torrid]

I drive a Nissan leaf and never public charge. I like the 2 cents a mile driving cost. And it won't be taking it or any other electric vehicle on a road trip unless it's on a trailer.

To be fair I wouldn't select a Leaf for a road trip either and it wouldn't work for my driving to replace either one of my vehicles completely.

 

[Trav]

EV's are not exempt from drive train mechanical failure, there are a lot of reports of cooling system failures causing the motor(s) to fail. Shorter tire life also seems to be an issue.

 

[Rmay635703]

You nailed it. Give it some time and we might get a chance to say I told you so! Or better yet maybe things change and they start pushing hybrids and alternate fuels.

I’m not certain why this isn’t common knowledge but EVs are taxed nationwide and only the states shown in green/gray aren’t considering efficiency taxes BEV/PHEV/HYBRID (yes the chart is already out of date considering IL is no longer green and is charging EV fees)

Looking at the red orange states that covers 95% of EV owners in the country that pay elevated taxes on EV .(or will pay in a year or two)


So by the numbers
32 states already tax EVs at a rate equal or higher than a similar gas car
(my economy car pays $37/yr in state gas tax)

8 also charge additional “gas taxes” on electricity at a rate above a typical gas car.
And most of the states charging an EV fee also charge a similar fee to plain gas hybrids and economy cars.

So Most states that tax EVs turn around and tax hybrids or even economy cars similar fees.


This is just the fact of the matter


Here is a breakdown of circa 2021 fees (already found one state higher than listed, despite the 2023 date on the list)

https://www.themanual.com/auto/road-tax-on-electric-cars-by-state/


About the worst state that is sadly the “model legislation state” for vehicle registration upcharges being proposed nationally is Virginia (close second Carolinas for other reasons)

In Virginia they charge extra fees if you get better than 25mpg as an efficiency fee.
This fee is in addition to any Hybrid or PHEV registration fees.
They also add on “personal property tax” which stays higher over the life of typical EVs and Hybrids compared to normal gas cars.
Virginia lead with a high EV tax + high EV personal property tax
but then quickly used it to justify increased taxes on almost everybody else.


This is the end game of registration taxes nationwide.
Everybody will pay more regardless of the type of vehicle. And they will justify it with the, but look how much we charge EV owners?


My view is that I oppose all new taxes because all new taxes always expand to affect everyone and we already have all the taxes we need, use them correctly and you don’t need new complex bureaucracy to support new complex taxes.

Our divisions and bias are being used to get support to harm ourselves.

 

[Torrid]

EV's are not exempt from drive train mechanical failure, there are a lot of reports of cooling system failures causing the motor(s) to fail. Shorter tire life also seems to be an issue.

Apparently no one knows how to keep their foot out of it with instant torque. My wife's wheel wells are are always coated in rubber.

I haven't heard these cooling system failures and motor failures, but I'll take your word for it. I'm involved in a number of EV sites and I haven't heard much of this. I've heard a couple of broken battery cooling inlets on Teslas from road debris, but literally it was a couple of them.

 

[y_p_w]

Apparently no one knows how to keep their foot out of it with instant torque. My wife's wheel wells are are always coated in rubber.

I haven't heard these cooling system failures and motor failures, but I'll take your word for it. I'm involved in a number of EV sites and I haven't heard much of this. I've heard a couple of broken battery cooling inlets on Teslas from road debris, but literally it was a couple of them.

I personally like the absolute control in an EV. I've tried some fun stuff like crawling up an incline at less than 1 MPH. No issues with stalling or stressing the transmission. Haven't done a whole lot of burning rubber, if only because my parents are usually in their car and would complain mightily.

I guess that's possible to some degree with a CVT, but that comes with some pretty nasty surprises when they fail and the response is often pretty slow.

 

[PandaBear]

Apparently no one knows how to keep their foot out of it with instant torque. My wife's wheel wells are are always coated in rubber.

I haven't heard these cooling system failures and motor failures, but I'll take your word for it. I'm involved in a number of EV sites and I haven't heard much of this. I've heard a couple of broken battery cooling inlets on Teslas from road debris, but literally it was a couple of them.

Saying EV wears out tire more is like saying full size pickup wears out tire more because 1) more torque and 2) more weight. Nissan Leaf is fine with tire wear if you buy normal tire. i3 I guess they are likely only OEM tire in that odd size and you are going to pay through the nose and the OEM will cheat by trading wear for rolling resistance. Maybe drive a Corolla instead of a full size SUV with V8 if you want cheaper tires lasting longer? I never burn rubbers so I don't know.

Cooling system failures is the problem of the manufacturers. In 2023 you should not have cooling system failure in gas or electric cars if designed correctly and maintained correctly. Moral of the story is to buy from a reputable company and not a company with questionable reputation, regardless of EV or not.

 

[PandaBear]

I personally like the absolute control in an EV. I've tried some fun stuff like crawling up an incline at less than 1 MPH. No issues with stalling or stressing the transmission. Haven't done a whole lot of burning rubber, if only because my parents are usually in their car and would complain mightily.

I guess that's possible to some degree with a CVT, but that comes with some pretty nasty surprises when they fail and the response is often pretty slow.

I think it really depends on the CVT. Toyota is smart adding a launch gear in CVT to get rid of the worst case scenario, and reduce the stress of the CVT tremendously. I have seen people modding Civic and a burnout just slip and destroy the CVT instantly.

 

[Trav]

Apparently no one knows how to keep their foot out of it with instant torque. My wife's wheel wells are are always coated in rubber.

I haven't heard these cooling system failures and motor failures, but I'll take your word for it. I'm involved in a number of EV sites and I haven't heard much of this. I've heard a couple of broken battery cooling inlets on Teslas from road debris, but literally it was a couple of them.

Oil seal failures in the final drive seem to be fairly common as well. As these cars age it is quite likely there will be more issues with the drive train and controller. This is not limited to Tesla cars.

https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2242

 

[demarpaint]

I’m not certain why this isn’t common knowledge but EVs are taxed nationwide and only the states shown in green/gray aren’t considering efficiency taxes BEV/PHEV/HYBRID (yes the chart is already out of date considering IL is no longer green and is charging EV fees)
View attachment 178328
Looking at the red orange states that covers 95% of EV owners in the country that pay elevated taxes on EV .(or will pay in a year or two)


So by the numbers
32 states already tax EVs at a rate equal or higher than a similar gas car
(my economy car pays $37/yr in state gas tax)

8 also charge additional “gas taxes” on electricity at a rate above a typical gas car.
And most of the states charging an EV fee also charge a similar fee to plain gas hybrids and economy cars.

So Most states that tax EVs turn around and tax hybrids or even economy cars similar fees.


This is just the fact of the matter


Here is a breakdown of circa 2021 fees (already found one state higher than listed, despite the 2023 date on the list)

https://www.themanual.com/auto/road-tax-on-electric-cars-by-state/


About the worst state that is sadly the “model legislation state” for vehicle registration upcharges being proposed nationally is Virginia (close second Carolinas for other reasons)

In Virginia they charge extra fees if you get better than 25mpg as an efficiency fee.
This fee is in addition to any Hybrid or PHEV registration fees.
They also add on “personal property tax” which stays higher over the life of typical EVs and Hybrids compared to normal gas cars.
Virginia lead with a high EV tax + high EV personal property tax
but then quickly used it to justify increased taxes on almost everybody else.


This is the end game of registration taxes nationwide.
Everybody will pay more regardless of the type of vehicle. And they will justify it with the, but look how much we charge EV owners?


My view is that I oppose all new taxes because all new taxes always expand to affect everyone and we already have all the taxes we need, use them correctly and you don’t need new complex bureaucracy to support new complex taxes.

Our divisions and bias are being used to get support to harm ourselves.

Interesting, but let me clarify, I really wasn't targeting the taxes your chart references. Once there are enough EV's on the road maybe they'll really hike the price of electric, after all someone has to pay for the grid modernization and the upkeep on it so why not raise electric rates, along with taxes and usage fees? Thinking solar panels to beat the high cost of electric, no problem, people who can't afford higher electric rates can refinance their houses and pay for solar panels. I can go on and on. One thing for sure interesting times are coming, and my little scenario is not out of the realms of reality either.

 

[Rmay635703]

Interesting, but let me clarify, I really wasn't targeting the taxes your chart references. Once there are enough EV's on the road maybe they'll really hike the price of electric, after all someone has to pay for the grid modernization and the upkeep on it so why not raise electric rates, along with taxes and usage fees? Thinking solar panels to beat the high cost of electric, no problem, people who can't afford higher electric rates can refinance their houses and pay for solar panels. I can go on and on. One thing for sure interesting times are coming, and my little scenario is not out of the realms of reality either.

Honestly In the US at least
because a big part of the electric bill is a result of municipal substation taxes, it’s quite likely the price per kwhr will go up as states move more of their infrastructure funding to those fees.

Rhode Island already does this and you can tell by their artificially high electric rates compared to “other regions “ with lower fees.

 

[JeffKeryk]

I imagine tires for out Model 3 will be a higher expense as compared to a comparable sized ICE vehicle due to the piggy battery.
I did replace the low voltage battery at 4.5 years; in my experience my new cars' batteries lasted longer than that.

I also believe that the Tesla drive train not be an issue, but time will tell. There is not sufficient data, but so far the data is favorable.
From Generative AI:
"Tesla motors are generally considered to last up to a million miles. However, it's difficult to determine the exact lifespan because there aren't any Teslas with that many miles on them yet. The highest mileage Tesla in the world has over 750,000 miles and is still running well."

 

[Torrid]

Oil seal failures in the final drive seem to be fairly common as well. As these cars age it is quite likely there will be more issues with the drive train and controller. This is not limited to Tesla cars.

https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2242

I'm pretty sure that's something I'd notice and get corrected before damage since I constantly check over my vehicles along with having an 8 year 100k mile powertrain warranty at least it'll be covered. I haven't heard much of this either. What I find concerning on the final drive is that they used to recommend 50k mile intervals for fluid changes and they no longer do. The fanboys tend to take this as gospel that Tesla thinks the oil will last forever. I've even had one argue that I run the risk of messing up the car by changing the oil as if it's rocket science to change the oil. All I think this guarantees is that for those non car people this ups the chance that any leak may go unnoticed. I for one will replace the oil at 50k miles like originally recommend.

Saying EV wears out tire more is like saying full size pickup wears out tire more because 1) more torque and 2) more weight. Nissan Leaf is fine with tire wear if you buy normal tire. i3 I guess they are likely only OEM tire in that odd size and you are going to pay through the nose and the OEM will cheat by trading wear for rolling resistance. Maybe drive a Corolla instead of a full size SUV with V8 if you want cheaper tires lasting longer? I never burn rubbers so I don't know.

Cooling system failures is the problem of the manufacturers. In 2023 you should not have cooling system failure in gas or electric cars if designed correctly and maintained correctly. Moral of the story is to buy from a reputable company and not a company with questionable reputation, regardless of EV or not.

Agreed. I look at the Model 3 RWD in a similar way to my 2004 GTO. They weigh nearly the same, are rear wheel drive, have the same width of tire, and plenty of power. If you drive them hard, tires get costly. I think the main tire wear issue for those that do have it use the power they have on tap. Traction is the first thing that is an issue and tires are the first thing that suffer. I would argue many that buy EVs have never driven a truly fast car and aren't used to not using the power available to them.

 

[andrew_j]

All rental companies allow to an option to return a car less than empty for a fee. Is the fee exhorbitant for an EV? It seems like the wasted time charging would be money well spent paying that fee.

For corporate stuff it’s easier to check the box and bill vehicle to work then deal with expense system on gas station.

 

[y_p_w]

Agreed. I look at the Model 3 RWD in a similar way to my 2004 GTO. They weigh nearly the same, are rear wheel drive, have the same width of tire, and plenty of power. If you drive them hard, tires get costly. I think the main tire wear issue for those that do have it use the power they have on tap. Traction is the first thing that is an issue and tires are the first thing that suffer. I would argue many that buy EVs have never driven a truly fast car and aren't used to not using the power available to them.

The strange thing is that with that power on tap, it requires really wanting to do it. I can't see my father chirping the tires. But I suppose others were used to really low powered sedans and econoboxes who previously needed to floor them in order to get on the freeway.

I drove a 2018 Model 3 Long Range with over 50K miles on it, where it seemed to be on the factory Michelin touring tires. It was close to the wear bars, but I was kind of surprised that they lasted that long, including what I would assumer were some abusive drivers. Not sure if the speed limitation helped.

 

[y_p_w]

All rental companies allow to an option to return a car less than empty for a fee. Is the fee exhorbitant for an EV? It seems like the wasted time charging would be money well spent paying that fee.

For corporate stuff it’s easier to check the box and bill vehicle to work then deal with expense system on gas station.

Depends on the location. I remember with that Avis Tesla rental, we found it was generally going to be delivered with at least 70% where it was expected to be at 70% on return. But then there was a fee for being below 70% and a steeper fee for maybe being under 20%.

I found this. Looks like Hertz for Great Britain. It was the first thing that came up. 0.8 Euros sounds pretty expensive, like the typical punitive charge for gasoline when low. Then they charge an additional penalty for going below 20%. But it sounds like they'll charge for the energy to get it up to 75%.

https://images.hertz.com/pdfs/ENGB_EV_RENTAL_TERMS.pdf​

We will record the EV’s battery status before we rent the EV to you and measure it when you return the EV. We ask you to return the EV with at least the same level of charge or 75% (whichever is lower). If you return the EV with a level of charge lower than this then we will recharge the EV for you at the rate of €0.80/sterling equivalent (inc VAT) per kW/h.

e.g. 75% on rent charge – 55% return charge = 20% 20% x 100% battery capacity = 20

20 x 0.8€ = 16€ Recharging fee.

If the EV battery status is below 20% on return an Administration Charge will apply in addition to the recharging fee because this increases our turn around times and involves staff time.

Administration Charge = +€25 (inc VAT)​

 

[Oro_O]

I can report J’s Bolt at least did not utterly fail him; I saw the tail lights clearly as he waved goodbye. We caught a beer or two in the harbor on his way to the airport.

An exceptionally nice, smart guy with great depth. Clearly a good person to be staff and helping manage the forum. I take back all the bad things I said about him in the past. (jk)

 

[MrStamper]

EVs are…cute.

 

[PandaBear]

I imagine tires for out Model 3 will be a higher expense as compared to a comparable sized ICE vehicle due to the piggy battery.
I did replace the low voltage battery at 4.5 years; in my experience my new cars' batteries lasted longer than that.

I also believe that the Tesla drive train not be an issue, but time will tell. There is not sufficient data, but so far the data is favorable.
From Generative AI:
"Tesla motors are generally considered to last up to a million miles. However, it's difficult to determine the exact lifespan because there aren't any Teslas with that many miles on them yet. The highest mileage Tesla in the world has over 750,000 miles and is still running well."

This is where generative AI fails. All of these AIs are basically getting answers by examples and statistics (aka hearsay in human). So when they answer "Tesla last up to 1 million miles" is basically browsing the web and heard a lot of people saying so, instead of pointing to a test result that tells you so or proves so.

Toyota can last up to 1M miles too as there are news article about it, but most Toyota ends up lasting probably 250-300k and then owners give up on it. How long will Tesla last depends on how much a replacement battery cost and then finally the owners give up on it.

In theory if you look at a plug in hybrid like Prius Prime, outside of the traction battery they are not lasting worse than regular Prius, and we know Prius in 2nd gen can easily last 200k miles if you exclude the battery.