Real-time exposure of the challenges of EV use

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Torrid said:
I'm pretty sure that's something I'd notice and get corrected before damage since I constantly check over my vehicles along with having an 8 year 100k mile powertrain warranty at least it'll be covered. I haven't heard much of this either. What I find concerning on the final drive is that they used to recommend 50k mile intervals for fluid changes and they no longer do. The fanboys tend to take this as gospel that Tesla thinks the oil will last forever. I've even had one argue that I run the risk of messing up the car by changing the oil as if it's rocket science to change the oil. All I think this guarantees is that for those non car people this ups the chance that any leak may go unnoticed. I for one will replace the oil at 50k miles like originally recommend.

Agreed. I look at the Model 3 RWD in a similar way to my 2004 GTO. They weigh nearly the same, are rear wheel drive, have the same width of tire, and plenty of power. If you drive them hard, tires get costly. I think the main tire wear issue for those that do have it use the power they have on tap. Traction is the first thing that is an issue and tires are the first thing that suffer. I would argue many that buy EVs have never driven a truly fast car and aren't used to not using the power available to them.
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They totally can build an EV that is cheap on tire if they limit the torque (i3 anyone?). It is just hard to sell to someone who wants "shut up and take my money" sales, and more power doesn't cost that much more than less power in the same range anyways.
 
Well, more fun.

Realized after a visit with @Oro_O to show me beautiful Gig Harbor… and a quick stop to grab fish.

IMG_8349.webp


I determined that I’d be less than 25% at the rental car return.

I have no idea what kind of fees get charged for a lower SOC EV. I don’t want to find out because rental car agencies charge massively for gas.

So I went back to my trusty Walmart.

IMG_8352.webp

And

IMG_8359.webp


Only a 5kW charger was available which is virtually worthless:
IMG_8356.webp

Fortunately soon after someone left the second “350kW” charger. So I connected. I didn’t need much, fortunately, because it only gave me about 50kW.

In total it took this:
IMG_8360.webp


Total trip was:
IMG_8361.webp


So I wasted a fair amount of time charging. And it’s really impractical for any real use. Even if it was on a Tesla supercharger getting 150kW, it still would have been a decent amount of time.

Small EVs definitely need 150kW+ charging. True 250kW (I’ve not seen a Tesla take that much) would be better. And this is for small sedans. Bigger vehicles with bigger batteries will need more to be practical.

We’re way off.
 
PandaBear said:
They totally can build an EV that is cheap on tire if they limit the torque (i3 anyone?). It is just hard to sell to someone who wants "shut up and take my money" sales, and more power doesn't cost that much more than less power in the same range anyways.
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It's completely user error though. I'm the make it eat crowd though, I love burnouts. If you cut power to save tires that's the next complaint people will have.
 
Back to these Li batteries. This could be relevant, as it pertains to rapid discharge. But if you ever watch that show "Battlebots", they show "fights to the death" between these uniquely team designed and built, remote controlled robots.

They are all designed and built from scratch. And many of these things are quite heavy, with some weighing a couple hundred pounds or more. They all have some type of "weapon" on them. Anything from spinning blades, to giant swinging sledge hammers.

There is even one that looks like a miniature DR Brush Mower, with a chain driven, high RPM spinning hammer out front, that pulverizes anything it comes into contact with.

It will easily take one of these 200+ pound robots, and fling it like a rag doll. (They all "fight" in this specially built, Lexan plexiglass enclosed "arena", to protect the fans watching from flying parts).

These things are all powered by Lithium Ion battery packs. And a good percentage of them are destroyed by battery fires. They use so much juice in the 2 or 3 minutes the "fight" lasts, they cook off on their own.... (There are Youtube videos everywhere of these E-Bikes and E-Scooters spontaneously erupting into smoke and flames in much the same manner).

Point being, when you're pushing a car from a standing start, to over 140 MPH in under 10 seconds, something eventually has to give. And while these "robots" are heavy, and their batteries smaller, they're nowhere near the weight of a car.
 
This has been a really great thread. It sounds like the OP had a good time minus the EV part. Thanks for sharing and I hope the flight home is a safe one.
 
Torrid said:
It's completely user error though. I'm the make it eat crowd though, I love burnouts. If you cut power to save tires that's the next complaint people will have.
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Burnouts are wasteful no matter the drive train. And once one has done one or a few, it’s also kind of silly and juvenile.

We got over/past the instant speed in a few miles with the first model 3 we rented.

Bigger tires, if they affect the Wh/mi metric, are unwelcome in my book. EV has big enough issues with range and per mile efficiency given the recharge limitations, that anything impacting range is kind of unwelcome.

As a toy the high performance model 3 type car is a fun thought exercise. As a practical use of energy and resources, it’s wasteful if it reduces range.
 
Torrid said:
I'm pretty sure that's something I'd notice and get corrected before damage since I constantly check over my vehicles along with having an 8 year 100k mile powertrain warranty at least it'll be covered. I haven't heard much of this either. What I find concerning on the final drive is that they used to recommend 50k mile intervals for fluid changes and they no longer do. The fanboys tend to take this as gospel that Tesla thinks the oil will last forever. I've even had one argue that I run the risk of messing up the car by changing the oil as if it's rocket science to change the oil. All I think this guarantees is that for those non car people this ups the chance that any leak may go unnoticed. I for one will replace the oil at 50k miles like originally recommend.
Click to expand...

I would definitely keep an eye on it, other manufacturers that are using Tesla motors are having the same issues. It seems although not confirmed that Chenming is the OE provider and the seal quality is not up to snuff. Like I said I would expect the older the cars get the more widespread the issues will become but it is an issue right now with some vehicles.

https://www.gizchina.com/2022/02/25/tesla-cars-and-components-are-almost-entirely-made-in-china/

https://www.chenmingseal.com/contact?lang=en
 
JHZR2 said:
Well, more fun.

Realized after a visit with @Oro_O to show me beautiful Gig Harbor… and a quick stop to grab fish.

View attachment 178381

I determined that I’d be less than 25% at the rental car return.

I have no idea what kind of fees get charged for a lower SOC EV. I don’t want to find out because rental car agencies charge massively for gas.

So I went back to my trusty Walmart.

View attachment 178382
And

View attachment 178383

Only a 5kW charger was available which is virtually worthless:
View attachment 178384
Fortunately soon after someone left the second “350kW” charger. So I connected. I didn’t need much, fortunately, because it only gave me about 50kW.

In total it took this:
View attachment 178386

Total trip was:
View attachment 178387

So I wasted a fair amount of time charging. And it’s really impractical for any real use. Even if it was on a Tesla supercharger getting 150kW, it still would have been a decent amount of time.

Small EVs definitely need 150kW+ charging. True 250kW (I’ve not seen a Tesla take that much) would be better. And this is for small sedans. Bigger vehicles with bigger batteries will need more to be practical.

We’re way off.
Click to expand...
I'd call it a trip from hell, what a hack! Now you got me thinking, a few days before my South Carolina trip I'm going to call the car rental company and remind them again I want no part of an EV rental. It would be just my luck they have one waiting for me.
 
BMWTurboDzl said:
Back in the day this would be akin to giving you an ICE with 1/4 tank and all the gas stations along your route would be closed. Remember those days? I sure do.

The issue isn't the EV in itself, but giving you an EV which hasn't been fully charged.
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Not really true. Any conventional car made in the last 40 years can easily go 70 miles on 1/4 tank. Heck, most will go a solid 50 miles when the low fuel light illuminates.
 
Trav said:
I would definitely keep an eye on it, other manufacturers that are using Tesla motors are having the same issues. It seems although not confirmed that Chenming is the OE provider and the seal quality is not up to snuff. Like I said I would expect the older the cars get the more widespread the issues will become but it is an issue right now with some vehicles.

https://www.gizchina.com/2022/02/25/tesla-cars-and-components-are-almost-entirely-made-in-china/

https://www.chenmingseal.com/contact?lang=en
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Is this relevant to the US market Tesla cars? The article looks like it’s talking about Chinese market cars….
 
I need to find a one way rental today. The often touted idea that one can just “rent a conventional car” when they need to travel fast is UTTERLY in error. When it’s needed, it does not exist. There are no cars. And taking Uber 10 hours is equally impossible. So is flying with a score of lithium batteries.
 
Cujet said:
Not really true. Any conventional car made in the last 40 years can easily go 70 miles on 1/4 tank. Heck, most will go a solid 50 miles when the low fuel light illuminates.
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A car with a smaller tank will go fewer miles on the last quarter. I wouldn’t be particularly concerned with the range in a certain fraction. I would be concerned with Wh/mi. The thing that really breaks the EV case is just how slow they are to charge. The charge overnight at home is even an impractical thing. I shared in here a number of times when I connected to a 5-10kW charger and the full charge timeline wasn’t until way after I had to leave the next day. The more one actually uses their car, the less useful these home chargers are as they’re just too slow.
 
Cujet said:
Not really true. Any conventional car made in the last 40 years can easily go 70 miles on 1/4 tank. Heck, most will go a solid 50 miles when the low fuel light illuminates.
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LOL.. Not my mother's old Pontiac which got around 12 mpg. In any case I think you understand my point.
 
There was a Reddit thread about an EV camper who was stranded as the local area had a power outage. It was kind of ugly. I kept thinking that a back up inverter generator for his trailer, and properly wired/tested, would have been a good thing.
 
billt460 said:
That's what I've always wondered about, when they show these Tesla "Plaid" cars drag racing Hellcats, Shelby Mustangs, and the like. That battery has to take a horrible beating, pushing that car to over 140 MPH in 9+ seconds.

If fast charging is hard on a battery, super fast discharging has to be even worse.
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You have made two posts in this thread about discharge, so let me cover that.

Batteries can be made with extremely low impedance. They can discharge at exceptionally high rates. The inefficiencies and “roadblocks” to doing this result in voltage drop. But it’s not harmful as long as a cell isn’t allowed to go below 2V, and you can get the heat out.

Heat is generated as I^2 * R, so a battery with a resistance R, will generate heat with the square of discharge current. So a 10A discharge will make 100x the waste heat as a 1A discharge.

But if you can get the heat out, all is well.

Charging has other issues. You can’t force the ions to intercalate (slip into spaces in the anode) as fast. And when they don’t want to go, you need to increase voltage. To get faster charging you also need to increase voltage. Excess voltage damages materials and oxidizes electrolyte.

Thus a battery can discharge really fast, but can’t charge as fast. It isn’t parity by a long shot. Discharging hard makes heat which reduces life. Charging fast makes heat and plates lithium in the worst conditions. Also not good.
 
JHZR2 said:
Well, more fun.

Realized after a visit with @Oro_O to show me beautiful Gig Harbor… and a quick stop to grab fish.

View attachment 178381

I determined that I’d be less than 25% at the rental car return.

I have no idea what kind of fees get charged for a lower SOC EV. I don’t want to find out because rental car agencies charge massively for gas.

So I went back to my trusty Walmart.

View attachment 178382
And

View attachment 178383

Only a 5kW charger was available which is virtually worthless:
View attachment 178384
Fortunately soon after someone left the second “350kW” charger. So I connected. I didn’t need much, fortunately, because it only gave me about 50kW.

In total it took this:
View attachment 178386

Total trip was:
View attachment 178387

So I wasted a fair amount of time charging. And it’s really impractical for any real use. Even if it was on a Tesla supercharger getting 150kW, it still would have been a decent amount of time.

Small EVs definitely need 150kW+ charging. True 250kW (I’ve not seen a Tesla take that much) would be better. And this is for small sedans. Bigger vehicles with bigger batteries will need more to be practical.

We’re way off.
Click to expand...

Ya. This is why people who get their panties in a wad over expected ICE bans really have nothing to worry about. These bans in the US at least will never happen if the technology and infrastructure isn't in place to allow people to use an EV for nothing more than a grocery-getting/commuter car.

Shame on Hertz for not giving you a fully charged vehicle. That's a poor business decision on their part because they know full well the real time charging limitations of a EV. That's just poor customer service on their part and I'd complain.
 
BMWTurboDzl said:
Ya. This is why people who get their panties in a wad over expected ICE bans really have nothing to worry about. These bans in the US at least will never happen if the technology and infrastructure isn't in place to allow people to use an EV for nothing more than a grocery-getting/commuter car.

Shame on Hertz for not giving you a fully charged vehicle. That's a poor business decision on their part because they know full well the real time charging limitations of a EV. That's just poor customer service on their part and I'd complain.
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Maybe it should be a shame Hertz and maybe other car rental companies for offering EVs. Hertz and likely most other rental companies can't support EVs. These companies might best serve the public by not offering EVs.
 
GON said:
Maybe it should be a shame Hertz and maybe other car rental companies for offering EVs. Hertz and likely most other rental companies can't support EVs. These companies might best serve the public by not offering EVs.
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I agree! I remember seeing a Hertz big wig on CNBC quite a while back bragging about all the EV's they are buying and their push to go green. Mind you little to no infrastructure in place to support the move. That's like diving head first into murky waters, a bad move in my opinion. People vote with their wallets and hopefully they send Hertz a message and rent a car elsewhere. That's how lessons are learned.
 
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